Suit challenges court ordered 12-step programs
Constitutionality of forced participation in program questioned
Last updated Thursday, December 7, 2006 7:17 PM CST in News
By Ron Wood
The Morning News
FAYETTEVILLE -- A federal lawsuit filed Thursday contends being sentenced to a 12-step program for substance abuse amounts to government-forced participation in religion.
Mindy Gayle Offutt sued Rogers District Judge Doug Schrantz in U.S. District Court in Fayetteville, claiming the programs have a religious component as their central theme and require everyone to pray at the end of each meeting.
"An individual should be allowed to decide whether or not to accept a particular religion, or whether to accept any religion at all," according to the lawsuit filed by Doug Norwood, Offutt's attorney. "A government authority is prohibited by the First and Fourteenth Amendment from forcing any person to participate in any religious activity."
Offutt pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge of possession of a controlled substance in October in Rogers District Court.
Schrantz, according to the suit, ordered Offutt to attend 12 Narcotics Anonymous meetings. He also gave her a 30-day suspended jail sentence that would be revoked if she failed to attend.
The suit contends Schrantz' order that Offutt attend the meetings or go to jail is a clear violation of federal law.
Offutt contends all or most 12-step programs meet the definition of religion.
She attended one of the meetings before suing.
The suit seeks an injunction or permanent restraining order, so Offutt isn't forced to attend the remaining meetings, and unspecified compensatory damages.
Razorback Central
July 9th, 2009
Reader Comments (161 comment(s))
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nobeliefs wrote on Dec 7, 2006 7:56 PM:
" while i agree that no one is forced to say the prayer, if you have no belief in a higher power other than yourself, which some believe then it seems to defeat the purpose, maybe they have something else she could do that would serve as help for her . "
Well... wrote on Dec 7, 2006 8:19 PM:
" Don't buy or use drugs and you too can avoid jail or AA meetings. "
Don wrote on Dec 7, 2006 10:42 PM:
" Think what you want, BUT!,This program has saved my life, AND the life of tens of thousands of other folks from CERTAIN DEATH!!. There is a chapter called, We the Agnostics, and while not for me, maybe she needs to read it. But I do agree that you can not push this on someone.
Thank You. "
Terra wrote on Dec 8, 2006 7:14 AM:
" This is a very important issue and should be addressed, not set aside with the offer to think of a coffee pot as your higher power if you must. Treatment programs can and should offer alternatives. While 12-Step meetings may work for many people, they are not effective for all. The mantra "It'll work if you work it" implies that the issue is not with the program but the attendee, not so for everyone. I stopped attending ACA meetings when I became increasingly frustrated with the prayer and religious overtones. This is one more small piece of the erosion of Church and State separation. "
NG wrote on Dec 8, 2006 7:34 AM:
" You will most likely say now that GANGS were the reason for the drug sales. There are no gangs..... "
Mary wrote on Dec 8, 2006 7:48 AM:
" This program is for who WANTS it, not for those who need it. I know it works for those who want it...my father has 32 yrs, my husband has 16 yrs. It is basic on a Power greater than yourself, whatever you choose.
If you could use the same desire and energy that was used for drugs, this program can work. It is said.... take what you like and leave the rest.
This program offer suggestions.
I'll take this program and the people any day over the life of how drugs and alcohol destroyed the families and friends. "
Me wrote on Dec 8, 2006 9:10 AM:
" If you don't believe in a higher power, the traditional 12 step programs aren't likely to work because they have that turning to depend on a higher power as a key element.
I don't think its an establishment issue but it does seem to be a waste of time to send someone to a program that depends on you believing something you don't believe. "
TWILA wrote on Dec 8, 2006 9:15 AM:
" THESE METTINGS ARE VERY IMPORTANT AND THOSE WHO SAY THEY ARE NOT HAVENT HAD FRIENDS OR FAMILY THAT HAVE BEEN HELPED BY THESE MEETING AND DONT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. THIS IS PURE IGNORANCE. IF IT WASNT FOR THESE MEETING AND PEOPLE LIKE JUDGE GUNN AND THE DRUG TASK FORCE WE WOULD HAVE LOTS OF CRIMINALS AND DRUG ATTICKS ON OUR STREETS NOW. SHE NEEDS TO PAY HER DUES FOR THE CRIME SHE COMMITTED AND SHUT UP. CLEARLY SHE IS JUST TRYING TO MAKE MONEY FROM THIS. "
NG wrote on Dec 8, 2006 10:29 AM:
" I'm sorry for the last comment, what I meant to say is, Gangs are alive and well in NWA "
William wrote on Dec 8, 2006 11:16 AM:
" As a former probation/parole officer and law enforcement officer, I have studied these programs at length. AA is the most successful of all the 12 step programs and it has only a 12% success rate. None of these programs will work for anyone, UNLESS, they want it to!!!! She should take her 30 days in jail and forget about the program! "
Danny wrote on Dec 8, 2006 2:10 PM:
" I tend to agree a bit with William the probation officer. She was offered an alternative, i.e. 30 days in jail.
AA/NA saved my life. The first sentence of Chapter 5 titled "How it works."
Rarely have we seen a person fail who has throughly followed our path. The original text used word "never." After some thought the founders decided to change it to rarely. It works!!! "
Arkie in Kansas wrote on Dec 8, 2006 4:11 PM:
" I have been in AA for 23+ years and never has anyone pushed religion on me or made me pray after a meeting. It is totally voluntary to pray as it totally voluntary to speak if called on at a meeting.
Put her sorry butt in jail and let her do her time, when she is ready to get straight then she can come back to rooms of AA. "
rob_star wrote on Dec 8, 2006 4:44 PM:
" Hey Arkie,
I thought it was mandatory to take Jesus Christ as your savior if you want to live in Kansas, alcoholic or not! "
rob_star wrote on Dec 8, 2006 4:49 PM:
" Does anyone know what the controlled substance in question was? That bit of information would be mighty handy in determining the relative guilt or innocence of the alleged criminal. "
bob wrote on Dec 8, 2006 4:58 PM:
" Well, not a problem. Don't force her to go to these meetings, just give her 20 years in prison -- no parole, no time off for good behavior. How's that? "
Mama Chick wrote on Dec 8, 2006 5:11 PM:
" The courts sentencing individuals to AA/NA is an outside issue. That's why each group has a choice to sign court cards or not. As to this person's allegations regarding to our being a Religious Organization there is some merit if you look at the definition of Relgion: "Websters:1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith"
there are some factors in the definition of the word that could lead one to think it's a religion. However comma it's been my experience that to truly learn about a group or organization religious or otherwise I would attend more than on meeting or class or whatever it is I am interested in learning about. Again there are plenty of men, women and young people with the problem of addiction who have stopped without the programs of AA/NA. I am not one of them. If they don't want to participate then don't. The judge gave the party two options. If she didn't want to take that option she was perfectly free to choose the other option. "
Linda wrote on Dec 8, 2006 5:20 PM:
" Twila is that you from California...
Who worked with the teenagers??? If so it's nice to see your encouraging support of the programs... "
Chris G. wrote on Dec 9, 2006 12:09 AM:
" I was not court ordered to come to N/A, but since comming here my life has changed for the better. I say this all the times at meetings wow what a concept "When I stopped getting loaded I stopped going to jail". Well I do not think this is a religues program but I do believe in a higher power that is graeter then myself and the prayer at the end of the meetings does not really constitute a prayer "
John wrote on Dec 9, 2006 7:25 AM:
" This is a complex issue. Often the courts give people the choice of paying for treatment, going to meetings, or jail. My recommendation -- they should keep doing that. This woman should be allowed to pay for psychotherapy. Someone needs to tell her forcefully that there is no free lunch. "
Sober.... wrote on Dec 9, 2006 9:56 AM:
" The 12-steps program don't push "God" on anyone. They're told from the start, "use the group as your higher power if you want to". Over and over I've heard "You can use a doorknob as your higher power for all we care." She obviously had a chip on her little drugged out shoulder when she attended that first meeting. She was looking for something, ANYTHING, as an excuse to keep from going to those meetings. Typical ACTIVE druggie and alcoholic thinking. Let her sit it out in jail. "
Melissa A wrote on Dec 9, 2006 12:58 PM:
" NA saved my life and my sons,I have 6yrs clean and its been the best 6yrs of my life.
All she is looking for is a way out and some cash to spend on more drugs at the same time. She isnt ready and thats all there is to it. Like so many have said some get it some dont.
NA/AA IS A SPIRTUAL PROGRAM!!!!!!!!!!!! "
Jason wrote on Dec 9, 2006 1:22 PM:
" For the former Probation Officer. What is the sucess rate for the correctional system? If you think take the thirty days now, and six months next time then it is a year in prison then five years. Eventualy they will do like all of us and say "I NEED HELP I CANNOT DO IT ALONE". Ask Chris if the Correctional Officer was a Higher Power at one time. (The world is filled with non believers)Then they get a TEN year sentence and then they see the light. The Judge gave me a choice do the time or do something different with my life. Now I have a life. For me I have a 100% recovery rate each day I choose not to take something and I consiquently do not have to see a Judge or a Probation officer who has no Faith in Recovery.
"THE LIE IS DEAD WE DO RECOVER" "
Jason B - CA wrote on Dec 9, 2006 2:11 PM:
" If she doesn't want the program, sit in jail, lady!! One way, you pay back society, the other way, you get to become a part of society. Your choice!! "
John C. wrote on Dec 9, 2006 6:31 PM:
" I take issue with the word, "prayer reqired at the end of the meeting".
Actually for me, I didn't pray at all when I got to NA, no serenity prayer, no 3rd step prayer at the end....if she has that bad of peer pressure issues maybe she should have taken the jail time...."Well, everyoinbe else is doing it..." I would quote the jumping off a bridge saying but it would just be beating a dead horse.
I beieve now so I pray now. I'm not going to look down on a newcomer who doesn't want to pray...
Now, she probably is an addict that came up with this grand scheme to feed her habit, ya know, "She was persnoally offended and can't work the rest of her life, so she deserves monetary damages...blah blah"
My 2cents (Ok maybe a little more)
John C. San Jose,CA "
Kim H. Livermore wrote on Dec 10, 2006 2:03 AM:
" I was like this lady when I first came in. I didn't know what was best for me. I just did what I saw so many people do before me and that was to "keep comimg back". So I did. I agree with the person who said one meeting is not enough to place judgement. I think she jumped to a convenient conclusion. I'll quote,"Our book is meant to be suggestive only". I hope she finds what she needs to get sober and clean. Unfortunately for her, this is the only form of recovery, to successfully treat addiction. Doctors agree. However,It would be interesting to know what she considers a "just" consequence for her actions. I'll bet, it would be the "easier, softer way". "
Les B. in Sacramento wrote on Dec 10, 2006 1:26 PM:
" To this lady, I would say,
I agree with Jason. The Law Suite is frivolous. Either go to the meetings or go to jail. Judges give the option of AA/NA/CA meetings. Going to the meetings is a way to stay out of jail. If you don’t like the meetings, don’t go. Take the jail time. BUT DO NOT prohibit the judge from allowing others who actually WANT to improve themselves the chance you got just because you didn’t like it.
In this case, it looks like you are simply trying to get around the system and make some money while doing so. We are not blind. It does not take a Genius to see you are trying to simply play the system.
If you don’t like the soup, don’t buy it. If you don’t like the train, don’t take it. If you don’t like the station, don’t listen. If you don’t like recovery, don’t take it.
Now grow up and pay the price of the crime.
"
Beth H. wrote on Dec 11, 2006 10:19 AM:
" Some people will do anything to scam money. I attend alot of NA meetings in the Dallas area and not once have I heard anyone forced to join the circle at the end of the meeting. When we circle up it is to pray to whatever higher power we choose. This is crazy and I hope the judge can get her to see that he is only trying to help her before she ends up in prison or maybe even worse. I wish I knew when the hearing for this is so we can get some members in the court room to show support. "
Cindy wrote on Dec 11, 2006 11:13 AM:
" The truth is what is read at the end of the NA meeting is not defined as a prayer in the book it is followeed;We have only to believe that the miracle we see working in the lives of CLEAN addicts can happen to any addict with the desire to change. We simple realize there is a force for spiritual growth that can help us become more
tolerant,patient,and useful in helping others. Many of us have said" Take my will and MY life. Guide me in my recovery. Show me how to love. ETA 11yr "
Recovering from Recovery wrote on Dec 11, 2006 9:45 PM:
" You 12 step true believers need to pick up a dictionary and look up the word "religious". If you can't understand how that applies to 12-step programs, then you are truly as brainwashed as you sound. "
mack wrote on Dec 11, 2006 10:09 PM:
" All 12 step programs are based on Religious Faith Healing. Forced attendence violates seperation of church and state.
The Establishment Clause guarantees that the "government may not coerce anyone to support or participate in religion or its exercise, or otherwise act in a way which 'establishes a [state] religion or religious faith, or tends to do so."
She will win this case, based on previous cases.
"
James Jamerson wrote on Dec 11, 2006 10:09 PM:
" I just googled NA 12 steps and fount THIS for step 3:
We made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
If that's not religious, I don't know what is. Just what are you NA people smoking? "
Phil S wrote on Dec 11, 2006 10:18 PM:
" First of all, I don't believe that self intoxication should be a crime, regardless of the substance used, unless one is driving a car or directly endangering others. Secondly, I can't believe that there are so many posters here who are so oblivious to how mention of God - whether by direct reference or euphemistic allusions - affects a captive audience of mandated attendees. The same principle applies here as it does to the classroom prayer issue. If you are forced to listen to others as they pray, or profess their belief in a Higher Power, you are being subject to religious indoctrination, regardless of whether you are told that it is "spiritual, not religious". The bait & switch routine of the AA Big Book chapter: "We Agnostics" is especially transparent in its attempt to convert non-believers to a God belief by the most dishonest deceitful line of double talk I've read in a long time. But those who are sold on the program aren't always aware of how it affects others. "
David B. wrote on Dec 11, 2006 10:54 PM:
" to whom it may concern,yes it does say in the third we made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of god as we as understood him,how can you quote the third step if you have not worked the the first two,i have learned that the na basic text clearly states this is a simple spiritual-not religious -program know as Narcotics Anonymous,this was written in 1965 for people who have had a problem with the god word,this is in the WE DO Recover chapter on page 84 of the basic text, if someone choses to belive this is a reglious program they probabley have not read the basic text,if you have any problems please read the the first page of book one it is only on paragraph,for more information please go to one of the meetings around the world they will all be spirital thak you for reading this i will keep coming back. "
Phil S wrote on Dec 11, 2006 11:02 PM:
" I want to recap what I had just posted, by showing parallels with two other church-state issues. I had already mentioned the school prayer controversy. Here, the non-participating students are still being subject to religious indoctrination by having to listen to others praying, and they are easily singled out if they leave the room. The same dilemma faces those who are court ordered to AA or NA meetings.
The other issue is that of the "Intelligent Design" movement. Here the problem is that mention of a "Designer" in public school classrooms alludes to God by use of a deceitful euphemism. AA & NA are even more direct in this respect by the fact that God is actually mentioned by name in some of the steps & traditions. Saying that you can have "your own conception of God", or that it can be "God as we understand Him", or that it can be a Higher Power in the form of the group, constitutes a thinly disguised veneer of "acceptance". Try going to a meeting sometime and saying that your Higher Power is your own sense of personal responsibility to do the right thing without having to relate it to some thing or being outside of yourself, and then see how accepting the fellowship is of your HP. The fact that this HP has to be some outside force should be a clue about its true nature as alias for God. "
Phil S wrote on Dec 11, 2006 11:25 PM:
" To David B, you are using the same argument that the Intelligent Design movement has been using, as I just stated. It hasn't passed the Lemon Test, and neither does AA or NA. I am more familiar with AA and the Big Book than I am with NA, but I know the drill. Don't you think that if either of these organizations were truly interested in being accessible to agnostics or atheists, they would simply drop the word, God, altogether? And yes, I am aware that there are a lot of self proclaimed agnostic/atheists who say they have no problem with the Higher Power concept. But are you aware of those who aren't comfortable with it? What about them, and why should they be expected to perform some kind of mental gymnastic excercise just to work a program that was never meant to accomodate them in the first place? If you really want a program of attraction, instead of promotion, then the power of the state should be left out of the picture altogether. "
Steve M. San Jose, CA wrote on Dec 11, 2006 11:33 PM:
" 12 Step programs are spiritually based with no religious doctrine. Having said that, let her do her 30 days because the idea that the court would be so bold as to order someone to a program that could restore their dignity is really stepping over the line! Financial compensation for getting arrested truly illustrates the self centered behavior that 12 step programs suggest we "level!" "
kerry wrote on Dec 12, 2006 5:38 AM:
" Absolutely ludicrous!! That someone should be told that if they won't knockle down and attend a blatantly RELIGIOUS program, pray, meditate, and confess their sins to strangers, they had best go to jail!! Talk about judicial coercion! AA's success rate is 5%, by it's very own triennial survery, and there are other programs with a much higher success rate, but no one is allowed to go to them because AA has a monopoly stranglehold on the nation, despite it's ABYSMAL success rate!! Using a doorknob, or "the group" as a higher power only works for the first couple of steps. Then it becomes obvious that this is a "bait and switch" tactic. Is a doorknob, or "nature", or "the group" going to magically relieve you of your "character defects" if you pray to it? Obviously NOT! You must have an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent deity to do these things!
I suppose you would say that if someone were ordered to attend church or go to jail, that is just fine, because they have an OPTION??? JAIL??? Let's just toss our constitution out the window and return to the Spanish Inquisition, shall we?
I have been to literally thousands of 12 step meetings and done all that was asked of me, and it failed to help me, because I have a DISEASE of the brain chemistry, not a "spiritual malady". I am now in a program that has kept me clean and sober for 2 years+, without AA! "
Rita wrote on Dec 12, 2006 7:26 AM:
" First of all, for those silly people claiming she is "just trying to make money" -- not all lawsuits are about money. There have been many lawsuits against forced AA/NA participation, ALL of them have been won, and NONE of the plaintiffs received any money. All they were suing for was the right to be sober without religious 12-step programs. That's all! Why would anyone want to FORBID someone from being drug/alcohol free without 12-step?
Secondly, AA/NA fans often say that they "tried everything" before 12-step, and AA/NA is "the last house on the block", etc. But ask any of them if they ever tried secular (non-religious, no "higher power") programs like SMART Recovery, SOS, Lifering Secular Recovery, Rational Recovery, etc. and they all say NO, in fact they have never heard of them! So much for "tried everything". So maybe this lady should be allowed to "try" something that works for her? "
Rita wrote on Dec 12, 2006 7:47 AM:
" Oh, and another thing -- what makes any of you so sure the lady in question is actually an addict? - The news story says only that she was arrested for "possession of a controlled substance". Do you think anyone who ever ingested an illegal drug is automatically an "addict"? It's actually creepy to have a policy of sending casual users to a program meant for people who have destroyed their health, family, etc. by drugs.
I think maybe mandatory urine testing could be part of the sentence. But if the person proves themselves to be "clean", what difference does it make how they achieve it?
I hope the lady wins the lawsuit! "
z wrote on Dec 12, 2006 11:30 AM:
" This arguement has been going on for years. Atheists claim it is unfair that secular programs are not accepted by courts and that only these "spiritual" programs meet their concepts. To be steered to them is against the constitution allowing for freedom FROM religion. Furthermore, as a bright and and atheist, we define spirituality and religion as the same. It is the religious that make a distinction. "
Candace wrote on Dec 12, 2006 12:40 PM:
" I've been in this program 16yrs, I relasped after 11.5yrs and now have almost 4 yrs back. This is not a religous program. It's a spiritual program based on spiritual principles. If you are not an addict or read the basic text of NA or the big Book in AA. Then I believe you should keep your comments to yourself. Yes God is mentioned in the steps but as we say in meetings pick your own HP whether it's mother nature, some believe in Wicker mine I believe in a higher power I choose to call God. I don't push my HP on anyone and the prayers at the end of the meeting are not manitory you join if you want. This program works if you work it and they are all suggestion take what you want and leave the rest. I would of be dead if not for these 12step programs. I was living on the streets pregnant, in and out of jail and going to any lengths to get my drugs. Had no moral or values didn't care if I lived or died. This program saved my butt. I had one chance left go to prison of get help. I got help not because I was court ordered , but because I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. Needing this program won't work you have to want it. "
DeniaE wrote on Dec 12, 2006 1:14 PM:
" The NA/AA/CA programs are based on attraction rather than promotion. Being forced to attend anything will automatically repel the desire to experience needed change with honesty, openmindedness or willingness. The 12 Step process should not be forced by the laws that govern. If one breaks the law then they should pay the price one way or another.
A grateful recovering addict since 9/24/84.
Denia E. "
Jason wrote on Dec 12, 2006 3:44 PM:
" I don't think any one was or will be forced to come to a meeting. You see the Judge is not going to pick any one up and take you to a meeting. The Judge will only give them the choice the rest is up to the person. If they choose jail that will be forced "see the differance". Then they will pe unter the control of a HIGHER POWER(Not Religious) they may call it THE COPS or what ever but it is a power greater than them. "
Duaine wrote on Dec 12, 2006 4:18 PM:
" AA is a Religion.
When argued in court with both sides represented the courts have ruled that AA fits all the criteria of a Religion.
Whats next?? Send people to Scientology or the Moneys??
Are our courts set up to force people into any religion???
AA is a Religion in denial.
AA is a Cult Religion and it's members who deny it and tell people AA is Spiritual are deceiving themselves and others.
"
Recovering from Recovery wrote on Dec 12, 2006 5:41 PM:
" Steppers can claim that their beloved "program" is spiritual and not religious all they want, it still doesn't change reality. Get out a dictionary and compare 'spiritual' with 'religious' and then offer a real explanation of how the "program" is spiritual without being religious. You steppers can't do it. And your inability to understand the logical fallacy that you present is just further proof of the detrimental effect that the 12-steps has had upon your ability to reason and think clearly. "
duaine wrote on Dec 12, 2006 6:23 PM:
" The Higher Power of aa Is "GOD" ---
May you find "Him" now.----
The God of aa is a Male God. ----
The Steps are designed to find that Male God.---
AA is first and foremost a Religion.---
Thats aa ---
Our Courts are artificially propping up the Religion of AA.---
The rates of people Forced into AA have passed 60%--
Without forced attendance in aa the Cult of AA would collapse.
"
julie R. wrote on Dec 12, 2006 7:29 PM:
" I think people who automatically side with AA, are
all ready attending a organized religion and there
for bias, and have made up there minds on autofill.
I am a member of SOS Save Our Selfs a alternate to
a any organized religion, because I want to say I made
the choice to stay sober, I am responsible for changing my life for the better. If I fail I and only me
do I answer to. I have always believed you can't blame
God if ones life go's bad or Thank God when things
go great. We have to believe also, that we be proud
of ourselves for our heard work, and take the responsibility of our failures.
Why do the courts choose AA in almost all cases.
When there our many groups who have been
internationally recognized and honored for there successful work, in the rehabilitation of addictive
behavior.
Our private choice or from birth decided for you
what religion we practice is not nor should be a
court ordered decision. Would these other people
who responded like the courts decide for them what church they should attend, of course not, that
is why we have the " freedom of choice" amendment.
We shouldn't be doing character assassinations on
Mindy we should be replying to her rights as
citizen just one in millions who have rights.
Julie
"
Tommy wrote on Dec 12, 2006 8:06 PM:
" Congratulations to you, Mindy, for standing up for religious liberty. We at 12-Step Coercion Watch will be cheering you on for total victory in the U.S. Supreme Court.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-Step_Coercion_Watch/ "
Phil S wrote on Dec 12, 2006 8:17 PM:
" To Denia E, I am glad that there is someone out there in a 12-step program who actually understands what the 11th tradition is about. AA & NA have long since circumvented this tradition about 'attraction rather than promotion', and it will hurt them in the long run. I don't care for AA myself. I suppose it can help some people - but only if they truly choose it for themselves without state coercion. I do have some respect for those in AA or NA who refuse to 'cooperate' with the state. "
mack wrote on Dec 12, 2006 9:35 PM:
" People who blindly follow and believe intensely in any religion will choose to remain blind to the real world maybe their entire lives! Considering that the majority are followers. And most 12 steppers are followers in a big way.
I won't think in your "church" if you don't pray in our public schools, our public recovery groups or our government offices.
12 step program is like Spiritual Amway.
Oh, I am 100% positive that 12 step groups are religious.
Y'all stay clean, anyway you can. Just remember your way isn't the only way or the right way for MOST people!
I am surprised God doesn't strike you down for denying His holy 12 step program is religious.
Shame on you. Its so obvious, and even the courts agree. You people are in de"Nile" if I ever saw denial. (here's your paddle)
At least mainstream religions don't rely on having the courts send warm bodies. At least they openly advertise themselves as churchs, not "Recovery groups"
Also you are a blight on society, by promoting unscientific ideas about recovery. You have stifled research and killed addicts and alcoholics.
Foisting ineffective quack medicine on sick people is not
a wonderful noble act of self-sacrifice to help others;
it is the reprehensible behavior of a damned fool.
"
Tim S., Wenatchee, WA wrote on Dec 12, 2006 11:35 PM:
" As a recovering addict, and a former counselor, I can say that there is definite merit in participating in 12 Step recovery groups. The key word is participating. I also believe that after a sentence is served, treatment and 12 step meetings should be recommended, rather than a condition of sentencing. Perhaps that would remove the component of judicial coercion. Sentencing people to treatment or AA/NA meetings is counterproductive to both settings, and makes the person view it as punishment, rather than help with a problem. While estimates of effectiveness vary, the fact remains that a number of people have benefitted from this course of action. It's sad that something that started out as a humanitarian effort has been turned into a civil rights issue. It was an attempt to decriminalize the disease of addiction. But as most of us know, give an addict an inch, and they'll take a mile, and negotiate for more on the way. "
An addict wrote on Dec 12, 2006 11:57 PM:
" Yea, the word God is used quite freely in AA/NA. Yea, they talk about spirituality, and that can be loosely translated into "religion". Yea, there are many other avenues a person can pursue to maintain abstinence. Have you ever seen someone quit using alcohol or drugs, and still not change how they live their life. Take a horse thief, and sober him up, and ya have a more efficient horse thief. The recovery community is full of people still engaged in addict oriented behaviors without using drugs. I guess the key is to find something that can help you redefine yourself in a positive way. The fact is that AA and NA survived long before the courts got involved. If you don't like what's available, develop something of your own that works. That's how Rational Recovery got started. Of course, it's founder has met with limited success as well. Maybe, it's just hard to get into, and stay into recovery, regardless of what avenue you take. Taking personal responsibility isn't just the problem of an addict. We have a government and society that fosters that as well. Addicts are just more invested in it due to basic survival. Integrity is easy to say, but hard to achieve and maintain. "
kerry wrote on Dec 13, 2006 4:51 AM:
" But most are not ALLOWED to "make up something of your own that works"! They are railroaded into this ONE program by courts, employers, licensing boards, etc. People say that you are not "forced to pray"--however, many agencies require that you not only get a "sponsor" but that this sponsor write a monthly report about "how you are doing, and how seriously you are working the program" and send it in ach month--and if sponsor says you are refusing to "take it seriously" by praying and accepting god, back to jail with you! We had one member at a group I attended who was a magistrate in the local courts. He would pull the court cards out of the basket as they went around and look at them to see whose name was on them and who their PO's were, and actually jot these names down, to intimidate these people into towing the line with "working the program". No coercion there! "
Leslie B. wrote on Dec 13, 2006 8:07 AM:
" I'm not sure how this issue was even able to get to "suit". Literature in both the AA and NA Fellowships state it is a "Spiritual not a religion program". One indicator that the courts allowing this suit this far should have taken note that Offutt based her findings after only one meeting. I remember several years ago when I first walked through the doors I was told - do 90 meetings in 90 days. If you are not happy or finding some help within after that, misery could be refunded at the door. I hope that this woman gets it before it gets her! As for the courts who allowed this suit to go on, they need to reevaluate the situation and drop it. It doesn't matter if we're in NWA or if we're in Zimbabwai.... If they were to read the 12 Steps alone, they'd see "God of our understanding"...not once does it say Catholic, Wiccan, Baptist, Jewish, etc. I hope this Offutt woman reads this to know that she needs to keep it real and take responsibility for her own actions...but then again, she'd learn how to do that if she actually accepted she has a problem and actually worked the 12 steps with a sponsor, etc. as the suggestions are given to anyone in recovery to do. "
vickey wilson wrote on Dec 13, 2006 8:22 AM:
" I agree with every viewpoint shared here...and would defend to the death your right to have one. I believe it is criminal to force NA or AA on anyone..to be honest...I don't want people in the meetings I attend who don't want to be there. I believe the court system uses our meetings against our own traditions...the main one being the principle of "attraction rather than promotion". I have often thought maybe selfishly that I wish these idiots who arent tired of dope or alcohol would just go get some and have fun with it. I also believe in legalizing dope...so it wouldn't over burden our tax system paying a judge to listen to this crap and us pay for her to either go to jail or use a program "beloved" by its members which most forced-to-attend people call "court referal Class" anyway. "
Chris wrote on Dec 13, 2006 10:03 AM:
" Good luck finding an accurate success rate of getting people off drugs. Society and governments seem to want treatment programs to give people a desire to stop using, which is basically impossible. It's like convincing a little kid that he doesn't want his lollipop or something. You might get lucky if you're a really smooth talker, but if you make empty promises you're bound to see a high rate of recidivism.
NA literature (na.org), written by members for members, suggests that the recovery program is geared toward people who want to stop using but haven't found success with other methods. They are not in the business of making people want to stop, they simply make it possible for people who already want to stop to do so. They do this by offering an alternative lifestyle. If people don't want it, it's not a failing of the program to do what it's supposed to. It's simply incompatibility. Some of the folks who don't want it might find things that work for them elsewhere.
The difference between twelve-step programs and religions is that religions provide a set of beliefs that members must accept or reject, but twelve-step programs simply suggest that it's helpful to try to believe in something. The freedom to define that "something" however an individual member chooses makes it perfectly possible to formulate beliefs that are perfectly compatible with science and reason and don't involve any hocus-pocus, or anything as ridiculous as 'my God is a doorknob.' "
Chris wrote on Dec 13, 2006 10:17 AM:
" This article fails to provide a specific legal definition of what constitutes religion. The court case will ultimately rely on that definition to determine whether or not meeting attendance constitutes legally mandated religious service. Mandated meeting attendance simply means that going to a place where people who have done similar things share their experiences. Most of the time, mandatory attendance is limited simply to that--attendance. There is nothing religious about listening to a bunch of people who wrecked their lives talk about how they are trying to put them back together. "
Ted wrote on Dec 13, 2006 10:35 AM:
" Only a fool or a cultist could read the 12 steps and come to any other conclusion other than it is a religion. What is often over looked is that 12 stepping has an abysmal success rate. By AA own admission about 95% of people who start these 12 step programs are gone within the first year, more telling is that 50% of of people never return after the first meeting. "
Saltcast wrote on Dec 13, 2006 12:17 PM:
" Just because the big book says it's not religious doesn't mean a thing.
A number of state Supreme Court and federal circuit court cases--including Arnold v. Tennessee Board of Paroles (1997), Griffin v. Coughlin (New York, 1996), Warner v. Orange County Dep't. of Probation (2nd Cir. 1997), Rauser v. Horn (3rd Cir. 2001), and Kerr v. Farrey (7th Cir. 1996)-- have defined Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and other treatment programs based on AA's 12 steps as religious in nature.
In all the cases, state agencies (either courts or corrections) sentenced or otherwise compelled probationers or inmates to participate in such programs, thereby, according to the case decisions, violating the First Amendment's separation of church and state (the Establishment Clause). AA requires that participants turn themselves over to a "higher power" as part of their recovery. AA advocates typically indicate that a higher power may be anything--including, according to former Oklahoma Governor Frank Keating, "a dead ancestor, a tall tree or the group itself."
Wake up AA is a cult. "
mack wrote on Dec 13, 2006 12:32 PM:
" The main reason why 12 steppers deny it's a religion is that it is part of the "bait and switch" con game. They are just repeating what their sponsors told them to say- "spiritual not religious."
Chapter 4 of the Big book is excellent evidence of the con game. So is the fact that at first, a new person is allowed to have any Higher Power of their own choosing. Then later, a person is expected to accept a "loving God as he expresses Himself in our group conscience."
If a person chooses to not buy into the religious aspect of 12 steps groups, they are shunned by the group. Also psychological violence in the form of veiled threats and insults are common.
This all happened to me. Sure, they say you can take what you want and leave the rest, but what they really mean is "keep coming back so you will learn to think as we think"
Here is a link to an article which describes AA, but can be applied to any 12 step group. http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/ofcourse.htm "
Brenda wrote on Dec 13, 2006 5:26 PM:
" Like many of us responding to this, NA saved my life also, but I want it! I think the girl should have just taken the 30 days and gotten it over with...she may come back in on her own one day! "
Breaker wrote on Dec 13, 2006 5:50 PM:
" Here is an excellent article from the Duke Law Journal:
http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?47+Duke+L.+J.+785 "
Candace wrote on Dec 13, 2006 8:30 PM:
" We don't talk about religion it is a god of our understanding. If you haven't been in the 12 step programs you will never understand. We don't talk religion and if someone get off on that subject we calmly ask him not to. I've been in AA and NA for 16 yrs. We don't forse anyone to pray. This person should just do her time in jail. She hasn't hit a bottem and if she doesn't want help its not time. Unfortantly some people bottem is death my dad died in his active addiction and I've watch many others that didn't get this program die in theirs to. It's a choice if the 12steps programs don't work for you like they have for millions then find something that does. Some Church works for them it didn't for me. Hey It only works if you want it not if you just need it. 1 meeting she went to geeze give me a break sounds like an addict that don't want to get clean. "
Breaker wrote on Dec 13, 2006 8:58 PM:
" 1 meeting she went to. Sounds like a smart girl who does not want to let a cult rape her soul.
http://www.morerevealed.com/library.jsp "
Mike wrote on Dec 13, 2006 10:31 PM:
" I agree with her. If she doesn't want to go to a 12-step meeting, then let her have her alternative. Send her to jail.
"
John Hutchison wrote on Dec 14, 2006 12:28 AM:
" I read do the meetings or do the time, but in the same post see, if it doesn't work, find something else. I was court ordered to 12 step. Did the meetings, got nothing out of them. I got clean with Rational Recovery. It is patently unfair to only give one option, especially an option with an abysmal success rate. 95% failure with aa's own research. "
NANA wrote on Dec 14, 2006 1:34 AM:
" G= Good
O= Orderly
D= Direction
I know that I have a disease, not a moral deficiency. I had no good nor orderly direction in my life. I agree with the fact that the subject in question can go to meetings or go to jail. I would rather have the ability to sleep where I want at night than in a cell with others. This disease always looks for a way out of getting healthy and acting responsibly. The disease is a power greater than me. I had no control over it. We are not lawyers nor judges and do not have all the facts. I will let those who know more of the facts on hand make their decision.
I am okay with me and where I am today. That is the most important item on my checklist.
Have a great day! ;=)
"
Stephanie C. KC Mo 8 years clean wrote on Dec 14, 2006 8:34 AM:
" Very often in recovery we have those that attend because of the stronger influences in their lives tell them they have to. it really comes down the to the "Great" power of choice. Do i stay or do i go? Do i keep fighting this battle i can not win on my own? that power that destroyed me? Or do i try a power that wants to help me? the choice is ours. for those of us that have come to know this, we do admit to gathering in a circle at the end of meeting take a moment of silence for the addict that STILL suffers. all we do is invite the GOD of our own personal understanding in to that small moment in time. We that go to meetings of our own free will and choice know that not everyone comes into the meetings willing or ready. and some of us are sicker then others. so we do say some small words of love and hope and lift them up into the great unknown. Hey those that came before us set the path so that we dont have to fight as hard as they did to even get help. the only thing left i have to add is this P.U.S.H pray until something happens. This lady really needs our prayers. "
Saltcast wrote on Dec 14, 2006 9:55 AM:
" I went to AA and had stelar sobriety for 22 years. I know the program forward and backwards. All you steppers sound like brainwashed robots. I've not heard one original thought. Addiction is real and there are other ways to beat it. AA only saves 5%. You'd think AA would save at least 50%, nope. AA's own Triennial Survey admits the 5%. See George Valliants work at Harvard. He is a board member of AA too. After 16 years of meetings I woke up and realized it's a crock-cult. Free yourself from the cult. Don't be afraid to at least read the Orange Papers. Do you think anyone in a cult realizes it? Isn't it strange that you think you will die if you leave? "
Mark F 28 yrs clean wrote on Dec 14, 2006 10:56 AM:
" To all of you who abhor twelve step groups,I wish you the best of luck.I entered the meetimgs a athiest,I stay at best a humanist.I got over the God thing by seeing that dying people who worked the program came back to life.I continue going to meetings because I enjoy them,I'm sorry so many of you haven't.Oh! and let's let the Law take it's course on mandated meetings. "
Renée D. wrote on Dec 14, 2006 11:25 AM:
" Saltcast, you do not give credit where credit is due, and cheat the new people out of having the "stelar" (sp?) recovery that you have attained. It is true, 12-step recovery is not the only way to achieve success from participating in active addiction, but it is the preferred way for those of us who have experienced the truest freedom in our entire lives by embracing the tenets of 12-step recovery. (the "cult" thing?) I have never bought into the percentages of success rates that cynical people quote for 12-step programs. It is just another opinion, even if they do have Phd. behind their name! I'm glad I was court ordered to attend, I was one of the lucky ones who figured out it was my ticket to freedom and a new life. A 30-day suspended sentence for non-attendance is a little unusual and stiff, and I admit, borderline forcing someone to hear the word God - which does have a religeous connotation. All I can venture is that the PO must have seen some of the miracles that are commonplace in this environment and it made a "believer" out of him!! "
Saltcast wrote on Dec 14, 2006 12:47 PM:
" Typical Renee of an AA member to pretend science and honest research "is just another opinion". You obviously have no concept of how research works. There are numerous studies done with strict adherence to the scientific method that proove over and over that AA has an extremely low success rate. AA on the other hand NEVER repeat NEVER engages in honest research. Just hocus pocus. Meanwhile mentally deranged people continue to sponsor clinically depressed pigeons. Folk medicine at best. Why do 95% leave in the first year? Those people need help too. But AA is inflexible and steeped in spiritual removal of defects. What a crock. "
Bob N. wrote on Dec 14, 2006 1:19 PM:
" What program for recovery out there boasts better stats? The simple fact is people are dying every minute from their addiction, ruining others lives and their own on the way. How many people in addiction "make it" out of it, without going to jails, institutions or dying. Sadly, we don't have good stats for any of this, success rates or failures. The disease of addiction for me is far too strong for me to discount any possible way of defeating it, be it NA, AA or any of the other alternatives. Is this about our freedom of religion? How about freedom from addiction? The courts may be misguided in mandating meeting attendance but our addicted society needs some answer. NA has been my answer, it works, and I was an agnostic. I am free to believe whatever I want, I am not chained dogmatically to believe any religious structure. Belief and spirituality has changed for me over the period of recovery, many things have happened, which leave me no doubt in the existence of something greater than I than wants better for me and all my brothers and sisters. Peace. "
Saltcast wrote on Dec 14, 2006 1:22 PM:
" If in fact AA is not a foolish cult it should be able to stand up to scrutiny.
Check out this detailed evalutaion:
http://www.orange-papers.org/
"
Phillip Chou Mareng wrote on Dec 14, 2006 1:24 PM:
" Sign me up! Does it come with free koolaid? or just coffee? If I can stay clean one more day I will drink it. "
Meridia wrote on Dec 14, 2006 1:31 PM:
" Nobody will make me pray! I would rather die of my addiction! AA and NA are cults that seek to enslave me, and I would rather be enslaved by crack! So there... "
Uniqua wrote on Dec 14, 2006 1:37 PM:
" I don't think the courts should force anyone into a 12 step program, but they do it, they are all out of answers themselves, drug crime and addiction is out of control. Many people in jails now are there because of a drug related crime. Can we blame the courts for "looking" for alternatives? But in the end it is the individuals choice whether or not she want's to attend a 12 step program, even if the courts send her she can only stay clean for herself in the end. NA can not give it to people who simply need it, they have to WANT it. When an individual has been caught up in the horrors of addiction, and has faced jails, institutions, and prayed for death, then can admit defeat, only then was I ready to hear about NA. Mindy might not even be an addict, she might just have gotten caught. One thing I know for sure, the courts sent me when I wasn't ready to hear about a soultion, I continued to use until I was beaten by drugs, then when I WAS willing to do something different, I knew where to go and that "thank you" I give to the courts, they planted the seed. NA is not a "brainwashing religion" it is a "program of recovery" and I am eternally grateful for NA and it's members. "
Candace wrote on Dec 14, 2006 2:17 PM:
" Your reasearch rate of people that stay clean and get clean in the 12 step recovery programs it is way off. think you need to research more. And Breaker get a life this is not a cult don't forse anything apon anyone its a choice here or find another method that works for you as long as it works. Been in AA and NA for 16 yrs it worked for me at least I'm not dead today and I was on my way there. This girl just needs to do her time she's not wanting to get clean. "
Saltcast wrote on Dec 14, 2006 3:31 PM:
" Candace: AA itself say's it's success rate is 5%. Are you arguing with AA's own triennial survey?
Then there is George Valliants work with 1000 drunks in Cambridge,Ma. George is on the board of trustees for AA and a doctor in the Psych dept at Harvard. Have you got any research you can point to? Just knowing 100s of people at meetings does not make your case. That is called anecdotal evidence and is not useable in searching for real data.
The problem is those in program think it saved their life and are afraid to look at any real evidence of being stuck in a cult, for fear they will die. That's the hook. It should be a message to you to at least evaluate what you are basing your whole way of life on. I did and now I am free from the bonadage of endless steps and folks with clinical depression endlessly expecting God to remove defects. It's crazy.
"
Recovered through RR wrote on Dec 14, 2006 5:41 PM:
" For those of you who talk of the rampant growth of addiction in this country, look to the overwhelming dominance of 12-step "treatment" programs, and AA, NA, etc, and you'll see that the growth of addiction follows the growth of 12-stepping. Coincidence? Some believe the 12-step "addiction-as-disease" concept is one of the cheif causes for rampant growth in addition in our society. People blame their immoral behavior (using/drinking/gambling, etc.) on their "disease" and take no responsibility for their own voluntary actions. Addiction is the only disease that you can cure by tying the "patient's" hands behind his/her back. "
mack wrote on Dec 14, 2006 6:18 PM:
" God???? Prayer??? Confession???
Stop pretending 12 step programs aren't a religion.
I am so tired of this "spiritual not religious" dodge. This is such a lame argument.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
"Rigorous Honesty????" I got this from Wikipedia: An attempted short definition of intellectual rigour might be that no suspicion of double standard be allowed.
I believe there is a great deal of suspicion involved here. Why would NA defenders be swamping this site with posts if they weren't afraid their "Big Secret" will be exposed.
Cults React, just like the Hive mentality, when the Hive is threatened, they swarm.
********************
You are seeing the nice side of them here in a public forum.... I have seen the "not so nice" side in meetings.
*******************
Being surrounded by a group of people who keep
telling you that you are powerless over addiction,
and that your will power is useless,
and you have an incurable, progressive and fatal disease, is not
getting "support". It is getting sabotaged.
"
hankfrank wrote on Dec 14, 2006 9:03 PM:
" i have just read a lot of comments from angry ,closed minded people who do not want to admit that AA and NA have helped a large number of people recover from adiction.in NA liturature it talks about prayer being talking to your higher power and medition is listening for the answer.I am neither atheist or christian and am looking forward to 19 years clean sunday "
Tommy wrote on Dec 14, 2006 9:18 PM:
" Forced AA in the US Military is Unconstitutional:
http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/ "
Kerry wrote on Dec 14, 2006 9:51 PM:
" "Good Orderly Direction" my eye! You don't pray to "good orderly direction"! The BB says that as humans, we are not capable of overcoming our addiction--it HAS to be a miracle wrought by a "higher power". Good Orderly Direction is not a deity!
And tell me this--if we all get to pick our own God--if I pick, say, Thor and you pick Jesus and he picks Bhudda, and someone else picks a pagan goddess, and yet someone else picks "nature" or even a doorknob--how is it that ALL these "gods" or pseudo gods are equally as effective at saving you from yourself and bringing about the miracle of healing that the BB says we need? If God IS God, then we don't get to PICK and CHOOSE who we want him/her/it to be. It has to be an omnipotent deity. A doorknob, nature, etc have no power to "save" you and hear your prayers, and I doubt the sky is full of different popular gods waiting for your request for help. Mack is absolutely right--it's a bait and switch con game--and steppers have nothing to counter it with except more "slogans" they were brainwashed with. "
kerry wrote on Dec 14, 2006 9:56 PM:
" And having a choice between jail or what amounts to CHURCH is NOT OK!!!! What a blind remark to make, to say well, she should just go on to jail then if she isn't "ready" for the one and only program that will save her!! Maybe then she will be so miserable she will come here of her own accord! What balderdash!! Why don't you just toss her in the stocks and throw tomatos at her until she admits that AA is "spiritual, not religious"--then circle around and pray The Lord's Prayer--which most "non religious" AA meetings are closed with. "
Mike wrote on Dec 14, 2006 11:07 PM:
" Let's get real. This whole issue has NOTHING to do with religion. This person simply does not want to follow the court's orders. Another addict is rebellious???? Stop the presses! She says "an individual has a right..." blah blah blah. Maybe the fact that she got busted with dope erased some of her "rights". And by the way, she does have a choice here. She can skip the meetings and go directly to jail. Her choice.
As for the knuckleheads railing on NA/AA. You guys are idiots and are missing the point. There are LOTS of people who are finding recovery and living happy lives. If it works for them, don't knock it. It's amazing to me what people will argue about. Many many many people are finding life saving help in 12-step programs, and yet there are a few (a very few mind you) who have the temerity to speak out against them. Unbelievable.
"
Yes indeed let's get real wrote on Dec 15, 2006 1:06 AM:
" http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/vaact.html "
You too can sue wrote on Dec 15, 2006 1:42 AM:
" August 29, 2003
City settles praying lawsuit: Confidential settlements in court cases are, by nature, confidential. But they become public records in Florida when state or local government agencies are parties to the case. A public records request enabled Paul Pinkham of The Florida Times-Union to reveal the settlement details involving a former Duval County jail inmate who sued the city of Jacksonville and a drug treatment provider in U.S. District Court over the right not to pray at the end of a treatment session. Court records indicated the parties had reached a mediated settlement to avoid trial with the terms deemed confidential. But city records obtained through the records request showed the woman will receive $37,500, with the city paying $6,250 and the treatment provider covering the rest. The story says the woman was in jail in 2001 after violating probation on a prescription drug charge and was enrolled in a drug treatment program. “She refused to take part in a prayer circle at the end of the treatment session, resulting in discipline and loss of gain time,” the story notes. The public records handbook profiles civil lawsuit case files on Page 82 and criminal court records starting on Page 103.
http://www.idiganswers.com/pages/stories1.august2003archives.html
"
kerry wrote on Dec 15, 2006 7:14 AM:
" I suppose you have no problem with people being forced to pray? And no, you do not lose your right to freedom of religion (or freedom FROM religion) because you are incarcerated!!! That is a basic freedom, and one that this country was built on, that you do not seem to understand. And just because AA works for a few people (and YES, in the percentages of addicts who have gone to AA for help, it is a pitiful few) does not mean it should be the law of the land and that no choice in treatment should be given. "
Stephanie C. KC Mo wrote on Dec 15, 2006 9:49 AM:
" Wow look at all the passion put behind the words of each person who has taken the time to have their voice heard. I listened to a speaker tape of Dr. Bob dated back to the 1950's. And because we do not keep attendance records no one can be sure of how many people are in the recovery process at one time. people come and people go. if you think for one minute on this whole deal at hand we can see some of us are self rightious (Sp) in our views and some are closed minded. yes there is a lot to be said about the nature of the disease and the all the avenues there are to seek and get help. some people need strictly God, while others need a back door approach to finding something, anything that can help them live and enjoy this life. you we are born and we die. this is the invetiable circle of life. Ok so we speak of God in our meetings AA does not shy away from what the bibical aspect of what that means. However in NA we are free to believe whatever we need to. Because of our strong nature and will we will not allow any one person dicate to us to whom or what we shall believe in. why do you really think this young lady is fighting so hard? maybe all her life someone tried shoving crap down her throat that she has had enough. "
Stephanie C. KC Mo wrote on Dec 15, 2006 9:54 AM:
" We know for us the we are not the only game in town. we also know that some of us needed the extra help in learning how to have principals in our lives. so i think that yes she has a point to be made.maybe it is the principal of the matter. whatever the case we hope that the newcomer will find something in which they can believe in and use it to help them in their darkest hour. one of the coolest gifts to be given is to share in the discovery of when that new person gets that glow about them when THEIR Higher Power works in their life. kinda like watching you child take his/her first steps.all we want to do is live and live happy at that. "
Madison wrote on Dec 15, 2006 1:12 PM:
" In Religion there is a leader, or a priest, or a Father. NA has no leaders only trusted servants. We are not a "cult" Every member is a member if they "say" they are. There are no dues or fee's, the only requirement for membership is the "desire" to stay clean. I don't know about AA but in NA, and yes our steps and basic text is different, alot of people use the group as their higher power, and in our basic text a higher power is someone who has experience, strength and hope staying clean. If my computer broke and I needed it to be fixed I would ask a power grater than myself to help me... a computer tech, see how this works? We are just admitting "hey I don't know everything" I can see very clearly that alot of closed, small, minded people that have posted here have never even considered that there might be a power greater than them. In NA we do NOT circle up and say the Lords Prayer, we have a moment of silence for the addict who is still suffering, then as our higher power to guide us in recovery. I would like to know if those who bash 12 step programs have ever tried it themselves, and if they have, and quit, are you still clean? I am not willing to risk it myself, I almost died out there, I stay because it is WAY better than it was! "
Uniqua wrote on Dec 15, 2006 1:16 PM:
" In Religion there is a leader, or a priest, or a Father. NA has no leaders only trusted servants. We are not a "cult" Every member is a member if they "say" they are. There are no dues or fee's, the only requirement for membership is the "desire" to stay clean. I don't know about AA but in NA, and yes our steps and basic text is different, alot of people use the group as their higher power, and in our basic text a higher power is someone who has experience, strength and hope staying clean. If my computer broke and I needed it to be fixed I would ask a power grater than myself to help me... a computer tech, see how this works? We are just admitting "hey I don't know everything" I can see very clearly that alot of closed, small, minded people that have posted here have never even considered that there might be a power greater than them. In NA we do NOT circle up and say the Lords Prayer, we have a moment of silence for the addict who is still suffering, then as our higher power to guide us in recovery. I would like to know if those who bash 12 step programs have ever tried it themselves, and if they have, and quit, are you still clean? I am not willing to risk it myself, I almost died out there, I stay because it is WAY better than it was! "
mack wrote on Dec 15, 2006 1:54 PM:
" The 12 steps are not about quitting addiction, they are about Religious Indoctrination.
Research Frank Buchman and the Oxford Group Religion. This is where AA came from, and Na is a clone of AA, with minor differences. NA is religious, has been found religious In the United States Court of Appeals For the Seventh Circuit, case
No. 95-1843
JAMES W. KERR,
Plaintiff-Appellant,
v.
CATHERINE J. FARREY and LLOYD LIND,
Defendants-Appellees.
- http://www.unhooked.com/sep/7circopn.htm "
mack wrote on Dec 15, 2006 2:04 PM:
" 12 steppers can't deny the religious roots of their program.
Isn't it revealing that only the first step of NA has the word "addiction" and steps 2,3,5,6,7,11 make a direct reference to a "Power" "God" "Him"
????? If you think NA is not a religious program you are not in touch with reality.
Check out www.orange-papers.org or morerevealed.com for much more information.
NA = Religion. Its "oldtimers" are the Gurus / religious cult leaders. "
mack wrote on Dec 15, 2006 2:17 PM:
" I was a member for 2 years and learned the hard way what happens when you question the cult's dogma. At first everyone with a desire to quit is welcome, but when I failed to conform to group expectations, I was shunned, insulted, and had subtle death threats levied at me. These 12 steppers have pulled a fast one on society. I view their program as blatently dishonest, harmful to true recovery, because as you have read, many members are scared to leave. Fear tactics are used, (like: Work the steps or DIE) and nobody "recovers" they are just in "recovery". Step one "powerlessness" is a big part of the indoctrination. If you are convinced you are powerless, then the newbie or "pigeon" is ripe for the process of indoctrination. This cult needs to get honest, but as you can see from the reactions from the apologists, it won't ever. 12 steppers have used front organizations to promote the disease theory, NCAAD is one. "
TakeWhatYouWantandLeaveTheRest wrote on Dec 15, 2006 2:18 PM:
" Your right mack, the 12 steps are NOT about QUITTING addiction. They are about Living life "Happy Joyous and Free" from addiction. We still have an addicts mind we just don't self medicate today. Before AA was AA ther was a group called the Oxford Group, not religion. This group faled and went by the wayside because of it's religious overtones, it was used as a sort of template for the now 12 steps of AA, with the offensive religious overotnes expelled. It is not the same, Oxford and AA are NOT the same thing at all, there is no Oxford group anymore. It sounds by the tones and attitudes in this blog that some folks are very resentful, hope ya don't have to use over it. "
mack wrote on Dec 15, 2006 2:25 PM:
" By the way, my computer repairman isn't my higher power, I have heard some lame excuses, but that tops it.
I pay him money to fix it, I don't pray to him.
Calling the group your higher power is cult worship.
Possibly the greatest heresy in the A.A. and N.A. dogma is this bit of idolatry: In the Alcoholics Anonymous program, you can use anything for your "God" or "Higher Power": a bedpan, a teacup, a doorknob, a stone, a teddy bear, a mountain, a motorcycle, or "Good Orderly Direction". You can pray to any Golden Calf, stone idol, or Higher-Powered item of Household Hardware that you like. You can even use your local A.A. or N.A. group itself as your 'God' if you wish. One of the more ridiculous word redefinitions that A.A. offers us is, you can make the word "G.O.D." mean "Group Of Drunks".
Just fess up, all 12 step programs are religious. If you people would admit this, I wouldn't have a problem with the programs existence.
"
mack wrote on Dec 15, 2006 2:32 PM:
" the Oxford group didn't Fail, it became Moral Rearmament, Nowadays its called the Initiatives of Change, or the IofC.
I am glad you admit the steps are not about quitting, but You are wrong about their true intent.
Hope I don't "use"? is this a veiled threat?
You cult members seem to think I am still in danger, just because your recovery is so tenuous. I am fully recovered, and have no fear like you.
I have found that true recovery is all about self empowerment, and if I believed your dogma about powerlesness, I would never have found true recovery. "
mack wrote on Dec 15, 2006 2:41 PM:
" http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/aa.html describes AA and all her offspring as Religions. "
TakwWhatYouNeedandLeaveTheRest wrote on Dec 15, 2006 4:48 PM:
" It say's this on the religious freedom site that you reccomended mack:
In accordance with the Stark and Bainbridge definition of Client Cult, no effort is made to weld the membership into a social movement . In fact the Anonymity aspect of the program prevents AA from ever becoming more organized into a cult movement lifestyle. Many members of AA continue to practice religion in an organized church while interacting with AA for the specific compensator of sobriety. AA's membership participation in a church or organized religion, and also the specific compensator of leaving drinking behind, . Instead of building and expanding power, the heart of AA is contained in the application of the Twelve Steps describing the experience of the earliest members of the Society. And for someone who has found "true recovery" it seems that your posts are very self-centered, I would never threaten anyone, I was talking about resentments and alot of us used over resentments, I am not pointing a finger at you. "
mack wrote on Dec 15, 2006 6:57 PM:
" The site I referred to you was very light with criticism and heavy with praise for 12 step groups, however, it shows the undeniable religious aspects.
All I want is for the 12 step groups to become honest and admit they are religious.
All I get from 12 step defenders is insinuations of my alleged self centered resentments (step-talk.) In a true believers mind, The program is above any criticism whatsoever. The individual must be at fault. This sounds much like the "Emperors New Clothes" where anyone who can't see the clothes must be stupid or...?
here is a link to an in-depth cult test:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html
"
mack wrote on Dec 15, 2006 7:33 PM:
" Many people are able to quit an addiction and stay quit without help from a support group.
However, If a person finds they can't quit on their own, then there is free help available.
Take advantage of the internet and new research!
Here is a list for starters... there is much more information available, just look.
Do your homework! Don’t take my word or anyone else’s…Anybody claiming to have “the only way”
to recover is misleading you. There are many ways. Find what works best for you.
LifeRing Secular Recovery
(compatible with all other recovery groups, just no God talk allowed)
http://www.unhooked.com/
Women For Sobriety
http://www.womenforsobriety.org/
Smart Recovery (Many Many great tools to get and stay clean and sober, all FREE- HIGHLY RECOMMENDED)
http://www.smartrecovery.org/
Rational Recovery (free introductory tool- AVRT, is very effective)
The rest of the program must be paid for, but its a lot cheaper than rehab.
http://www.rational.org/
S.O.S. Secular Organizations for Sobriety- (Lots of good stuff here too.)
http://www.sossobriety.org/
16 Steps of Discovery and Empowerment
http://members.tripod.com/~NadineGaye/16steps.htm
"
kerry wrote on Dec 15, 2006 11:06 PM:
" Great list, Mack. And yes, "Uniqua", I attended over two thousand meetings of both AA and NA, had four sponsors, and worked the steps many times over, with all the fervor I could muster and the desperation of a dying person. It never did a hair of good. All it did was make me feel WORSE about myself. What you are saying about repairmen being a HP is ludicrous! There are plenty of things more powerful than I. Are those things going to make me clean and sober just because they are more powerful? George Bush is more powerful than I--should I pray to him? Look at the steps! They ask you to turn your will and life over to a HP. Let's suppose that HP is a doorknob. How do you turn your will and life over to a doorknob? Or a group? Do you pray to the group? Do you strive through prayer and meitation to improve your conscious contact with the group? Will "nature" remove your shortcomings when you pray to it?
"
kerry wrote on Dec 15, 2006 11:15 PM:
" And yes, I have been clean for over two years now--in a pragram that treats my disease for what it is--a medical abnormality of the brain chemistry, not a "spiritual malady". AA/NA give lip service to addiction being a disease, but then refuse to acknowledge medical treatments for that disease--only "god" can heal you from this ONE disease. Anything else, you are free to go to doctors, take medication, see a shrink, etc--but this one is all about god. NA may not pray the lord's prayer, but they cirxcle up, pray the "third step prayer", and then chant "It works if you work it, and you die if you don't!!" This is absolutely FALSE and an obvious threat used to keep newcomers in fear of leaving. And I notice no one responded to my post about god needing to be a real GOD, not some God you picked off the aisle at God-Mart, if they were to really be able to help you.
Face it--it's a psychological tactic. They tell you you cannot heal yourself, only god can do it, then they tell you to make up any god you want, hoping the power of the mind WILL fix you.
"
Sober 18 yrs thanks to AA wrote on Dec 16, 2006 3:38 AM:
" A judge has the wisdome to try and help a person by sentancing them to meetings instead of jail, they then sue him? I think this person needs a heavier jail sentance, then just maybe they will see the light. Oh yeah, that is provided there are any windows in the jail. "
kerry wrote on Dec 16, 2006 8:12 AM:
" Does "seeing the light" mean the person will start praying? You cannot force or compel people into a religious program in this country--at least, that's what our constitution says. Would you say the same thing if the judge sentenced a jewish person to attend catholic services every sunday? What if the judge also required the person to have a catholic "sponsor" who would report every month about whether or not the jewish person was learning catholic prayers and doctrine and putting them into practice? Would that be fine and dandy with you too, because they had a "choice"--JAIL??? What if a person does not want to practice "spirituality", pray, and turn over their lives to an unknown higher power that can hear these prayers? Too bad, right? Off to jail! We'll learn these miscreants to be proper chrsitians yet! If they don't want to praise the lord and pass the Big Book, we'll lock 'em up until they "see the light". "
kerry wrote on Dec 16, 2006 9:26 AM:
" And YES, in many 12 step groups, you ARE forced to participate in the prayers, stepwork, getting a sponsor, etc. If you do not, a "bad report" will be made about you to your judge from your sponsor, stating that you are not capitulating to the program ideals, you have not turned your life over to a HP, you are stubborn, resisting treatment, etc. When I was in a correctional facility based therapeutic community, we had a "revival" team come to our unit for a day of "prayer and healing". Inmates were bribed to go with bars of "real" soap and shampoo donated by the church folks. If you chose NOT to go, you got to scrub the floor with a toothbrush for four solid hours, and were written up for "refusal to comply with treatment". There are your tax dollars at work, folks! Also, if we refused to attend the nightly AA meetings, we had to sit facing a corner and write an essay on one of the 12 step "slogans" like "Let go and Let God". This doesn't sound like COERCION to you???? "
kerry wrote on Dec 16, 2006 11:29 AM:
" Kim H. Livermore wrote "This is the only form of treatment to successfully treat addiction". What a complete untruth THAT is! MANY other programs treat addiction MORE successfully than 12 step groups, but they are shouted down by cult like-brainwashed steppers who say "my way is the ONLY way! I know, because my SPONSOR told me so!" More people recover from addiction with NO TREATMENT AT ALL than with AA!! BUt 12 steppers are experts at plugging their ears and singing "lalalala" when presented with facts and truth. I thought you were supposed to "take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth", guys? Or is that only with other steppers? Why would you NOT want to hear aboout other successful folks who have recovered without AA? Bill W. did--he welcomed such news. I think he would be deeply ashamed of what AA has become. "
Jerry Hawkins wrote on Dec 17, 2006 9:11 AM:
" The lawsuit should have been filed for cruel and unusual punishment.
The meetings are worse that a day long interlude with soap opera channel. I am suprised more people don't commit suicide from attending these meetings, it's very depressing. "
Jeff Lawson wrote on Dec 17, 2006 10:07 AM:
" How about 20 years in prison for those who mangle the English language? It sure is easy to pass laws, and judgement upon others, if you think it will have no impact on YOU...because, of course, you live your life perfectly, and would never break any laws. "
Jeff Lawson wrote on Dec 17, 2006 10:34 AM:
" We have more people locked up in jail than any other nation on earth, including China, which has 4 times as many people. Does calling ourselves "The land of freedom" strike anyone else as ironic? Don't like how someone prays? Lock'em up! don't like if they don't pray at all? Lock'em up! Did they stumble on a cracked sidewalk, or walk in the road because there was no sidewalk? Lock'em up!
BTW, for those who feel perfectly safe relying on the judgement of the police as to who's guilty, if you're walking, you can ask for a breath test all you want, if, in their judgement, they say you're intoxicated, that's all she wrote, they don't have to give you one. And may your vaunted "Higher Power" help you, if you get your identity stolen, because that's just too much work for them to track down. I feel so safe. "
Leslie B. wrote on Dec 19, 2006 2:14 PM:
" Each person that comes through the doors of AA or NA or whatever A is there for one reason or another. Be it court ordered, or because they found their lives were unmanageable and either they found it on their own or was referred by someone. Not everyone is going to "get it" the first time around. Not everyone will "get it" at all. The court system was giving this woman a chance, and like a child not getting what he/she wanted, this woman through a temper tantrum. She wants her cake and wants to eat it too...she doesn't want to go to jail OR to meetings. Which was the lesser degree of punishment here? If she doesn't want to attend meetings like thousands of others do around the country who have been "court ordered" and have to get that little piece of paper signed to show they were there, then let her sit in jail. We are all responsible for our own actions. That's a part of what you learn in working the 12 steps. It's also a rigerous program of honesty. Stop harping about the drama. You will find drama in meeting halls, supermarkets, the work place, church, and in the therapists office as well as TV, so get over it and move on! What is your part in it?! If there is no part, why worry about it?! "
Leslie B. wrote on Dec 19, 2006 2:22 PM:
" Many people who are addicts, alcoholics, whatever... they use that particular "substance" as a coping tool...Why? Because it is a symptom of underlying problems in people who have no coping skills and tools in life. That and other circumstances have got them to where they are in life. If you really want to tout what the steps don't do for you, then you obviously didn't get honest with yourself, were not willing to change anything about yourself; you decided to have reservations. An easy escape for you if you suddenly can't handle life or just decide it was easier using whatever poison you chose. However; if you do work hard and put effort into it, results can be seen and accomplished for the positive. Learning coping skills is just one level of what working the 12 steps will do for you. Ever wonder why so many people are medicated these days? It's easier to swallow a pill and stay numb to the real feelings than it is to sit and work steps and attend meetings where you feel EVERYTHING. For you all who want to deem the meetings a cult, so be it. That's your perogative, but until you can walk a mile in many other shoes where AA and/or NA DID work for them, and review in your own life how come it worked for them and not you, you'll never gain that rigorous honesty. Let her go to jail. "
Leslie B. wrote on Dec 19, 2006 2:37 PM:
" Kerry wrote on December 16, 2006 9:26 AM:"And YES, in many 12 step groups, you ARE forced to participate in the prayers, stepwork, getting a sponsor, etc. If you do not, a "bad report" will be made about you to your judge from your sponsor, stating that you are not capitulating to the program ideals, you have not turned your life over to a HP, you are stubborn, resisting treatment, etc. ....... Noone forces you to do anything. Sounds like you have some unresoved issues and resentments. Getting a piece of paper signed only shows you were there. What you do during that hour is your business. Most meetings will sign your cards at the end of the meeting and then hand them back - because if you are not going to do it, why say you were there at all? You want someone else to lie for you by putting their signature on your card? Noone forces you to pray - noone makes you say or do anything you do not want to do. And...what goes on in a jail is not what goes on inside in meetings outside of the jail. Have a resentment? Fix it then cause only you are losing sleep over it...noone else! "
John Hutchison wrote on Dec 19, 2006 11:57 PM:
" Why just 12 steps, there are other better programs. How about some that have personal responsibility instead of just handing it over to a higher power. I did 5 years of step work so don't give me that it works if you work it bs. There are other programs. If you really believe in attraction rather than promotion, sign the slips at the beginning of the meetings. "
Leslie B. wrote on Dec 20, 2006 7:58 AM:
" I've seen groups do that before... only for the people to get up and walk right back out. It's not any meetings responsibility or obligation to sign any card. However, I know many that do. In the same sense though, why sign a card and say "that person was there" if they get up and walk right back out. That's enabling behavior. If anyone is court ordered to go to any "type" of meeting.....it is THEIR responsibility to carry through with it.... not the chair person's responsibility. However, if you don't want to take the order handed down by the judge, why even bother show up?! Again... it doesn't really matter where you go - AA or NA meetings, CA or DA even! It doesn't matter if you're even ordered into therapy. If you don't want the help and are only doing the motions to get out of jail time, then all of the above will get you nowhere. You'll only move forward when you are ready for the help.
Why continue to try and argue a point where it is obvious that many of the people posting in here are going to have different opinions or insight on the subject in general. The original subject - woman is suing the judge for inflicting religion on her by ordering her to a 12 step recovery program instead of ordering her to jail. "
Leslie B. wrote on Dec 20, 2006 8:03 AM:
" But instead of following through with her court order, she decides instead that she doesn't need to go after 1 meeting. So be it.... that is her choice! She'll in the end result, go before another judge who WILL put her sweet dairy aire into jail. Let's not forget, she never pled innocent. She pled guilty. She's trying to get out a punishment now. But obviously if this subject is bothering you or angering you as you read it, then you have more work to do on yourself. Free rentals usually do not have good views - just cluttered space and frustration. "
kerry wrote on Dec 20, 2006 8:33 AM:
" So, you ARE saying it is OK for judges to sentence people to whatever they please, including religious (or 'spiritual') programs, and require reports from the sponsor saying that the person is doing what the program says she should (find a HP, pray, etc), and that really, even if they did sentence them to church itself, that too would be ok as long as they had a choice of going there or to JAIL????? OPen your eyes!!!! "
Leslie B. wrote on Dec 22, 2006 4:56 PM:
" Kerry, you need to step back for a moment. You just told me to open "my" eyes; however you are the one putting words into my mouth, and are reading and/or seeing only what you want to. Not once have I ever said that the sponsor reports to the courts about a sponsee. What is your basis for all this anger that is coming from you? What is your role in this particular woman's situation that you are taking such a defensive stance? The judge was actually fair with her, giving her a chance to straighten out her life without being behind bars in the process. It was her choice whether or not she followed the orders. She chose not to, and instead threw a legal hissy fit with a ludicrous reason for not continuing. Here's a scenario for you - if you court ordered to do something - anything... are you going to go against the order of the court and do what you want, OR, are you going to follow that order and move forward in your life and not face further prosecution possibly for being in contempt of court. This woman essentially is in contempt of court for failing to carry through a court order, and in an attempt to avoid further jail time, is now suing the judge for giving her an easier softer way to clean her life up rather than send her to jail. "
Leslie B. wrote on Dec 22, 2006 5:02 PM:
" However, for someone who knows all about 12 step recovery programs, you certainly seem to not be aware or knowledgable of what I was talking about before you chose to do this latest blast. I'm not going to argue with you. I'm sorry this is effecting your serenity so much. I hope you can find a way to get past this. "
kerry wrote on Dec 22, 2006 7:00 PM:
" I am telling you that this is what happened to ME in 12 step groups! I never said YOU said it happened! I have been to thousands of 12 step meetings, read every word of both NA and AA literature many times over, spent loads of time on their websites. And I know for a fact that many jurisdictions DO have the sponsors report to them monthly on how the "sponsees" are following the program, and I have personally been involved in situations where people are sent back to jail as being "treatment resistant" because their sponsor said they refused to accept God and take part in the group "Lord's Prayer" at the end. And your little quip about my "serenity" just reeks of a brainwashed cult member. Gee, I'd better learn that "acceptance is the answer" and quit protesting this blatantly unconstitutional travesty, huh? No thanks. Someone has to stand up for the truth. And in THIS country, the constitution does not allow for forced participation in religious (or "spiritual") activities, EVEN in lieu of jail!! A secular alternative must be offered too. What is wrong with that? "
mack wrote on Dec 24, 2006 8:52 PM:
" Wow Leslie, what a great show of blameshifting you have accomplished. It's never the program's fault, it's always the persons. Now anybody who argues against you is going to be accused of having a resentment, again. That's been done already, here, to me. Also a remark about how I would go and "use" over it.
The problem is you steppers put the program before people. You think that its a "one size fits all" program, and if anyone objects or has a difficulty with it, it's never the programs fault.
Leslie, you have been brainwashed. The 12 step program is a Religious Cult, and you can't or choose not to see that.
It is every citizens right to enjoy freedom of religion in the United States, and coercion by government officials to attend a religious ceremony is in direct violation of the Establishment Clause. It has nothing to do with someone having a resentment or being angry. It has everything to do with a U.S. citizens rights being violated, and you are assisting in that violation by defending a blatently dishonest religious cult disguised as a "self help support group" You 12 steppers should be ashamed of yourselves. What happened to "Attraction not Promotion?"
Any 12 stepper who signs court slips is in violation of their own traditions. "
mack wrote on Dec 24, 2006 9:00 PM:
" Leslie Wrote:....
If you really want to tout what the steps don't do for you, then you obviously didn't get honest with yourself, were not willing to change anything about yourself; you decided to have reservations.....this sounds like the Emperor's New Clothes...."We are two very good tailors and after many years of research we have invented an extraordinary method to weave a cloth so light and fine that it looks invisible. As a matter of fact it is invisible to anyone who is too stupid and incompetent to appreciate its quality."
"
mack wrote on Dec 24, 2006 9:07 PM:
" From defenders of
AA, the following
responses are likely to occur (in no particular
order):
NAME-CALLING
The person introducing the taboo ideas (the
heretic) is belittled and laughed at. Mocking
occurs. Derogatory comments are leveled. Name
calling often ensues, e.g., the writer was
recently called a "thoughtless dweeb," told "you
are your own worst enemy," that the writer was a
"crackpot psychologist, the kind that can't get
tenure because they are always bullying peers and
students," a "facist," "doctor baby," an
"arrogant son of a .....," "contemptible,"
and a person engaging in "highly unscientific
behavior," who has embarked on a "personal
vendetta."
ACCUSATIONS OF MURDER
After the initial mocking and belittling, the
criticism appears to take a more serious turn.
The ideas presented by the heretic are considered
potentially dangerous. People who do not know
better will misuse them and kill themselves or
others. Thus, the heretic should be held
accountable for murder, or the death of another.
The accusation of heretic-as-murderer or
potential murderer can be leveled as an
unintended result of the ideas presented by the
heretic, in which case forgiveness by some cult
members is still possible; or it can evolve into
rhetoric in which the heretic is described, or
alluded to, as someone who has a deliberate
interest in endangering the lives of cult members
in this way. The heretic then personifies evil in
the eyes of cult members. It is at this point
that the exchange could become physically
dangerous.........
continued... "
mack wrote on Dec 24, 2006 9:08 PM:
" YOU'RE ONLY IN IT FOR THE MONEY
The heretic may also be accused at this point of
having an economic investment in his particular
point of view. For example, the writer has been
accused of trying to pirate potential
psychotherapy clients away from AA on more than
one occasion in order to make money off of them.
DIAGNOSIS OF MENTAL ILLNESS
Another tangent the cult members often take is to
accuse the heretic of being "mentally ill." The
taboo ideas are alleged to stem from personal
trauma the heretic has not dealt with, and his or
her statements in opposition to the group
ideology are considered "projections," the
function of "denial," an "unconscious" process
that is said to be a "symptom" of his or her
mental illness. The heretic may be accused of
expressing an emotional need to receive negative
attention in order to feel good about himself or
herself.
Here, the heretic may be confronted on a
paternalistic basis: "He is sick. He needs help."
At times, cultists may yield and take a more
compassionate posture in relation to the heretic
at this point, trying to convince the heretic
that he/she is sick, and that he/she needs to
come to his/her senses.
"
mack wrote on Dec 24, 2006 9:11 PM:
" IT TAKES ONE TO KNOW ONE
There is often an attack on the validity of the
heretic's ideas. The heretic's ideas are termed
invalid because he or she is not a drug addict.
Frequently, the heretic is asked, "have you ever
had a drug problem?" Whereas in the DIAGNOSIS OF
MENTAL ILLNESS case the motive driving apparent
concern is that the heretic's inappropriate
behavior is likely to stem from a mental illness,
in this case, if the heretic has not had a drug
problem or shared in the problems-of-living
experienced by cult members, he or she is said to
be incapable of speaking from legitimate
experience, as it is only by this experience that
someone can "know" what the truth is regarding
their cult ideology.
"
mack wrote on Dec 24, 2006 9:12 PM:
" INVOKING AUTHORITY
A demand for scientific evidence to support the
heretical ideas always emerges. In AA, members
often cite scientific findings to support their
claims regarding involuntariness. That certain
medical organizations have endorsed their
ideology is brought forth as evidence of the
veracity of their ideas. When scientific evidence
to the contrary is presented by the heretic, the
research is said to be too old to be valid, not
extensive enough, subject to diverse
interpretations, and ultimately no match for
personal experience. At times, when scientific
information is brought into the discussion by the
heretic, other scientists will accuse the heretic
of unethical use of knowledge and influence, and
threaten to report him or her to some
professional association in hopes that he or she
may become professionally censored.
When the demand for scientific evidence is met by
the heretic, a retreat to IT TAKES ONE TO KNOW
ONE may occur. One person wrote recently: "You
sight [sic] science. I sight experience,
strength, hope." A favorite demand is "don't
criticize what is unless you can propose a better
way." Another is "your sources are not scientific
enough," and "your understanding of science is
not sophisticated enough."
"
mack wrote on Dec 24, 2006 9:13 PM:
" SHAMING
The assault on the heretic is based on the idea
that facts are cruel and insensitive to people
who have done him or her no harm. "Is this the
way you treat your friends, (or patients)?"
REDUCTIONISM, TAUTOLOGY, CONTRADICTION, AND NON
SEQUITUR The counter-argument to the heretic
involves scientific and philosophical
reductionism to the point that few, if any,
conclusions regarding the issues at hand can ever
be reached. Circuitous arguments evolve. Blatant
contradictions emerge, e.g., "the alcoholic
cannot willfully control his drinking, therefore,
he must be abstinent." Yet, people choose to
abstain from drinking alcoholic beverage. The
alcoholic allegedly cannot choose to control his
drinking, therefore, he should choose to control
his drinking. (8)
Using analogies that don't work is a favorite
tactic of cultists. The analogies are often not
reciprocal. For example, the alcoholic is seen as
like a diabetic. Yet diabetics are not like
alcoholics.
"
mack wrote on Dec 24, 2006 9:28 PM:
" here is a good link to a cult test:
http://www.churchofreality.org/wisdom/cults/ Remember the saying, contempt prior to investigation? Investigate! "
Carolyn S.-San Jose,CA wrote on Dec 29, 2006 5:20 PM:
" Very interesting. I believe as a member NA I have a responsibility to not be drawn into public controversy. This issue certainly is one that could tempt me to get "drawn into". :) But, I'm sure you all can figure out what's best for this person and the constitutionality of it and on and on. Meanwhile, I'm going to continue doing what works for me and have for 29 consecutive years. Keep coming back-it works!:):) "
sunny c wrote on Dec 29, 2006 6:41 PM:
" At the end of the meetings at least the ones that I know of it is said " For all who wish to join we will close in our normal matter." I personally have a very good friend who at this time steps outside, this is his choice. See one of the things that NA has taught me is that today I have a choice. NA is a set of spirtiual principals not religous believes. Today NA helps me to learn to live life not look for the bad. "
kerry wrote on Dec 29, 2006 7:01 PM:
" But see--you ARE NOT LISTENING! I am telling you that not all people who attend 12 step groups have that kind of choice!!! If my sponsor reported to my judge that I was stepping outside and refusing to take part in the group prayer, or that I was not accepting a higher power and praying to he/she/it regularly, or that I was not working the steps, I would be put back in jail! I saw it happen to others on a regular basis. MOst outpatient and inpatient rehabs compel their patients to work a 4th and 5th step before they can be discharged! Some are court ordered and state run rehabs. They "imported" local steppers once a week to come in and listen to the inmates 5th steps, and you had to pick a stranger and pour out your heart--and then they reported to your counselor on whether you had seemed contrite enough, or had agreed to ask god to remove your shortcomings,etc--and if not, you got extended or went back to jail to "think about it". Does that sound like a free choice to you? "
Life on life's terms - living and recovering wrote on Dec 30, 2006 10:00 AM:
" Wow! It is so truly amazing what the Internet brings us these days. Instead of moving on with all of your lives, you stay glued to chaos and controversy. While a few stop in here from time to time to post, others have made it their new nest. I must say that after over an hour of careful reading here, you all seem to have either way to much free time on your hands or believe in the same results with just possible differences in the achieving those results. Have you ever heard the phrase - agree to disagree - ? I spent several years in the rooms of AA and NA, and I take and keep what I want and move on from the rest. You all have a choice in life of what you are going to do - whether drugs or alcohol is involved or not. You are still ultimately responsible for your own actions and guess what...none of us are perfect. I understood what each one of you said - and wow, the slinging of mud is getting deep especially from the ones who are coming in here still on almost a daily basis. Have you noticed the newspaper doesn't even care about this woman or story now? It's old news. Time to move on people. "
BOB M. HURST,TX. wrote on Jan 1, 2007 3:09 AM:
" I WILL HAVE 9 MONTHS CLEAN JAN.4TH HIS IS MY FIRST TIME IN RECOVERY AND I CAN SAY THAT AFTER 35 YEARS OF ACTIVE ADDICTION N.A. HAS SAVED MY LIFE AND GIVEN ME A NEW WAY TO LIVE.I AM A RECOVERYING CATHOLIC WHO IN NO WAY WANTED GOD IN MY LIFE UNTILL I WAS READY TO QUIT BLAMMING HIM FOR EVERYTHING WRONG IN MY LIFE.I'AM ON STEP 8 AND I KNOW GOD CREATED NA FOR PEPOLE LIKE ME THAT HAD TO COME IN THE BACK DOOR TO FIND HIM.BUT THERE ARE MUSLIMS ATHIEST IN MY HOME GROUP WITH MANY YEARS CLEAN.MY POINT IS I HEAR DAILY PEOPLE THANK THE COURTS FOR MAKING THEM SIT DOWN AND LISTEN AND TILL ONE DAY IT HIT THEM THAT OUR ROOMS OF RECOVERY WHERE FULL OF HOPE FOR A NEW WAY OF LIFE. I DONT THINK YOU WILL FIND MUCH HOPE IN JAIL!AS FOR ME I THANK GOD FOR NA AND FOR MY SPONSOR AND SUPPORT GROUP.AS FOR PRAYING AT THE END OF MEETINGS I KNOW OF NO ONE WHO WAS EVER MADE TO FEEL BAD IN THE DFW AREA MOST GROUPS ARE NON SMOKING AND PEOPLE CUT OUT FOR A SMOKE OR GO BACK TO WORK AND NO ONE THINKS TWICE ABOUT THEM NOT CIRCLING UP AT THE END.WE GET OUT OF LIFE WHAT WE PUT INTO IT AND I CHOOSE TO PUT MY H.P. (GOD) IN CHARGE HE DRIVES THE BUS MUCH BETTER THEN I EVER DID IN 35 YEARS. "
kerry wrote on Jan 1, 2007 8:59 AM:
" But not everyone BELIEVES in a higher power! Some people are not believers in ANY religion! And just because you personally feel that religion has helped YOU, does not mean it is the answer for everyone. You cannot sentence people to religion. AA/NA are very obviously religiously oriented programs. It is impossible to work the steps as they are written without a belief in a certain KIND of HP--one that is all knowing, all seeing, and is willing to help you and listen to your prayers--and that is not something that a doorknob, or "nature", or any of those "alternative" HP's that are suggested to atheist newcomers can do. They are just "bait and switch" HP's--when they get further along in the steps, they find they must get a traditional HP or give up working the program. After all, who prays to a doorknob? And the success rates of these programs are MUCH lower than many other methods of treatment--in fact, they are lower than NO treatment AT ALL--yet judges are blissfully unaware of this, and are largely unaware of the religious component, so they keep on sentencing people to it. "
kerry wrote on Jan 1, 2007 9:05 AM:
" And saying that people are not forced to sircle up for prayer at the end is ludicrous as a defense. No one is forced to stand and pray in church, either. Does this mean that judges should sentence people to attend church? The whole atmosphere of church is based on belief in a higher power, and involvement in church activities almost necessitates a belief in this as well. It would be hard to attend church and be accepted and get much out of it as an open atheist. AA/NA are just as religious (you can call it spiritual if it makes you feel better) and involvement to any great degree in the program requires a belief in a HP that is traditional. What is the point of a judge sentencing you to a religious program that you cannot truly participate in because you are an atheist/agnostic, unless it is because the judge and the program members are hoping that forced attendance will eventually break down your defenses and you will "come to believe" in god like any good ol' American right wing fundamentalist red blooded republican patriot ought to? "
mack wrote on Jan 2, 2007 5:39 PM:
" Its useless to try and talk sense when it comes to religious fanatics who
have abandoned reason a long time ago. A very un-objective and closed minded stance based on personal testimony is all they keep repeating. To this date there is still no scientific proof that any 12 step program actually works at all. But they will keep repeating their Big Lie over and over again, and pretty soon people believe it.... It's all Propaganda and unproven Religious Cult Dogma promoted by 12 step members and the U.S. Government.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-propaganda.html
"
mack wrote on Jan 2, 2007 6:00 PM:
" Dear Life on lifes terms, thank you for an excellent example of an Ad-Hominem Attack. Anybody who argues against the 12 step apologists MUST be obsessed with this and therefore their opinion is not worthwhile. And how do you know we haven't "moved on" with our lives? And how do you know the newspaper isn't interested? And I looked at the dates and nobody has posted daily like you claim. So much for your "nest" theory...So much for your program of "Rigorous Honesty"
"
mack wrote on Jan 2, 2007 6:15 PM:
" Confusion of Correlation and Causation:
This is simple and straight-forward: just because two things tend to happen together does not prove that one thing causes the other. Likewise, people also often confuse association and causation, or causation and coincidence. The rooster's crowing doesn't really make the sun rise. Just because someone got clean and sober in a 12 step program doesn't mean the program works. Just because people say the individual 12 step meetings that they happened to go to didn't push religion doesn't prove that 12 step programs aren't religious. I can say honestly many meetings I went to closed with the Lord's Prayer, and I can also say I felt pressure to conform to the groups expectations. But does this make it true? Probably not in the eyes of a 12 step defender. A double standard is in operation here. "
kerry wrote on Jan 2, 2007 6:26 PM:
" We had a woman in our AA group who refused to circle up for prayer at the end of the group due to her atheistic beliefs. The group secretary told me that I really should not pay any attention to her "shares" because she had obviously not grasped the "simple concept" of GOD yet, and therefore was on a "dry drunk" and would be until she broke down and joined in the prayer circle. This was the attitude of most of the rest of the group as well. When I spoke up about how uncomfortable the whole religious element made me (including the cross hanging on the was next to "Let Go and Let God") All they did was chuckle warmly and say "keep comin' back--you'll learn!" "
Ralphcox wrote on Jan 2, 2007 7:17 PM:
" The debate about 12 step programs is over.
They have been PROVEN almost totally ineffective. People have been exposed to this faith healing scam for over 70 years and it's about time to put this quackery to bed. Because that's exactly what 12 step programs are. Psuedo science and quackery. I spent 25 years in and out of AA before I realized it was a scam.
Enough is enough. We can do better than this silly stuff.
There is no argument about whether or not NA or AA are religions. It's already been decided in many court cases and as been challenged all the way to the Supreme Court. It's a religion folks whether you like it or not!
The judge is going to lose this case because the precident has already been set in previous cases.
12 step groups continually spout lies to the newcomers in oder to entice them into their religious cult.
This nonsense has to stop!
And people like myself and some of the others who have responded here will see to that.
I assure you!
Ralph "
A Victim wrote on Jan 2, 2007 7:24 PM:
" The 12-step model, with all it's complex nuances, amateur advice, and maladaptive behaviors, nearly killed me. I was advised repeatedly to STOP taking psychiatric medications. When I did that, I would become suicidal. 12 steppers were not there when I became suicidal. There is no medical aspect to their model, but there is medical advice doled out. It's also not my "fault" if I don't "believe". We're made the way we are. It's tantamount to making a gay couple attend Baptist pre-marital classes. IT IS WRONG. "
Don Lee wrote on Jan 2, 2007 7:45 PM:
" The Ornage Papers presents a total view of what the step groups in America are about. It seems clear to me that they are a CULT. It seems clear that decisions in many other states support the claimants arguement. Worse the US Givernment has actually tried to impose a form of treatment, rather than give an alternative by which the defendant may proceed with in order to fulfil the courts wishes. The court decisions weren't based on whether the program stes that they are spiritual but o the number of times the wod God is used as part of its doctrine and also those Christian prayers Wkae up America and see coercion for what it is. "
CJ wrote on Jan 2, 2007 10:49 PM:
" To all who responded to this news story with your own testimonial on how AA/NA has worked in your life: didn't your sponsor tell you "it's not all about YOU?" This is about separation of church and state, the word "God" is all over the steps and both "big books", and court-mandated attendance of 12-step meetings of AA/NA directly violates the phrase "attraction rather than promotion" (Tradition 11). Again, this is about the violation of someone's constitutional rights, not Mindy Gayle's recovery (or yours), or whether "it works if she (or you) works it." "
heethun wrote on Jan 3, 2007 5:04 AM:
" As much as steppers may want to deny it their program is religous. Anything said either in the literature or by individual members is a bait and switch tatic. The word 'god' appears in their steps more than in the 10 Commandments. Bill W., a former Oxford Group member, fully intended that people would eventually come believe in god, not a doorknob or coffee pot.
Government agencies should have to offer non-religious alternative if they are to sentence people to support group. And it might help to send people to groups with a better than 5% success rate, as is detailed in AA's own study. "
THE ONE wrote on Jan 3, 2007 4:00 PM:
" THANK YOU SO MUCH TO NORWOOD. HE IS THE ONLY ONE TO GO UP AGAINST THIS STATE AND EVEN THIS CITY. HAVE YOU PEOPLE EVER HEARD OF "GET THE WHOLE STORY BEFORE YOU START JUDGING PEOPLE". FOR THOSE WHO ARE SO "RELIGIOUS" YOU WILL ONE DAY BE JUDGED. SO GOOD LUCK TO YOU AND ALL OF YOUR HATRED REMARKS. IF THIS IS WHAT RELIGIOUS PEOPLE ARE LIKE THAN I DONT WANT ANY PART OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "
Recovering Addict wrote on Jan 4, 2007 10:57 AM:
" I think that one of NA's most important Traditions is being lost in this. Our 10th Tradition states that Narcotics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the NA name ought never be drawn into public controversy". NA is not a named Party to the suit. Therefore, this is an outside issue. "
an ordinary person wrote on Jan 4, 2007 11:07 AM:
" A 12-step program is for those who want it. Not necessarily for those who need it. Even if the courts stopped sending people to those 12-step programs, they will still survive. AA is not an issue here, I believe the lady went to a NA meeting. I have family that attends the NA meetings because she wants to change her lifestyle. They have helped her and in turn helped our family. 12-Step meetings will only help those who want to be there. I think this issue should be handled in the Court, not on this site. "
case closed wrote on Jan 4, 2007 9:28 PM:
" Since AA is the Mother of all Twelve Step programs (and since AA grants permission to the other programs to use and adapt its Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions) in order for this point to be valid, it is your responsibility to show that NA differs in any essential respect from the other Twelve Step programs "
Sue wrote on Jan 7, 2007 7:31 PM:
" I'm back. I am not here to bash AA only to inform people of the cult that aa is. If you do not pray the lord's prayer at the end, you are looked down upon, it's all about religious conversion. People in AA tried to run my life for me, and a few times I was asked to speak at at meeting, and because I said no, the person threw a fit on me and told everyone there that I said no. If you do not do what they tell you to do, they are convinced that you will drink again, if that is not trying to control people and condescend upon them then what is? No there is not "leader" but there are old timers who run the meeting places, they are called "gurus" the newcomers look to them as if they are God and the guru takes full advantage, via, have sex with the female, manipulate her into doing whatever he wants her to do. There are some very sick people in aa, and they don't believe in medicine, people with mental disorders are told to quit taking their medicine because if you take medicine, you are considered, "not in recovery", it was based on christian science, which was the oxrford group. I'm happy, joyous and free today without AA. "
sue wrote on Jan 7, 2007 7:45 PM:
" I was so brainwashed to the point that I could not even relate to people outside of AA cause they did not talk and think like me. Most AA's just hang with AA's. A few times I questioned some of the Big Book, which according to them is a bible, and I was told to keep coming back and it gets better, did they ever question anything? The first things they tell you is get a sponsor and do the steps and meetings meetings meetings. If you don't then they don't really spend any time with you, you are still sick you see and haven't had the spiritual awakening yet which is really a spiritual conversion which makes you an outcast. My mom got sober through her church and a friend of mine just quit on her own, aa people say that if you quit on your own then you are really not an alcoholic, ???????? cause see you need the God of aa to remove it for you. It's really messed up. it took 2 years to get all that crap out my head and now am sane again. These are facts people, and a lot of other people have had the same experiences. Yes cult member swarm like flies when you question anything, something wrong with that. "
sedition2006 wrote on Jan 9, 2007 5:13 PM:
" To put it simply enough for some of you to understand:
Just because AA states it is spiritual and not religious does not make it so. I could state that I have blue eyes all that I want but if you just look, you will see that I have brown eyes, period.
AA is without a doubt based on believing in a higher power. That IS a religious preference.
I do not believe in ANY being, besides myself, that will save me. Trying to force me to do so, in order to comply with the program, IS against my constitutional rights.
Forcing someone to choose between a relegious program, however cloaked, and jail is in violation of the Constitution. "
Durga wrote on Jan 27, 2007 12:45 PM:
" 12 Step Programs are Spiritual not Religious. You are free to choose your own conception of God. Religions tend toward authoritarianism, dogma and exclusivism. 12 Steps programs have no leaders, no owners, no dues, no fees, no money, power, property. Spirituality is for open-minded seekers of the truth. I choose the principles of the 12 Steps for sanity and serenity in my life. Since doing so I have not been involved with drugs or alcohol and hence, no involvement with courts or police either. A spiritual approach provides every possible way for an individual to find what is necessary and meaningful for themselves. It discards nothing, nor does it insist upon anything - it respects the Divine nature and freedom of each individual. Self examination is the first step and fundamental basis of understanding and resolving any disease. The 12 Steps work for those who are honest, open and willing. Denial and delusion will find other playgrounds to amuse themselves in.
If you are interested in a way to improve your health and wellness in recovery come to The Yoga of Recovery retreat, offered at various internation locations. We offer Yoga and Ayurveda for members of 12 Step and those overcoming addictions and self-destructive behaviors. See www.yogaofrecovery.com for dates and locations. "
Stacie wrote on Feb 25, 2007 9:38 PM:
" I am a recovering alcoholic and addict and I, myself have attended both AA and NA meetings. I was origanny forced to go through the court systems but now i go willingly. I know for a fact that noone is forced to do anything at an NA meeting; all of the steps are suggested as a program of recovery. At the end of the meeting we say " anyone that would care to join us in the Lords Prayer is welcome to". "
j davis wrote on Feb 28, 2007 6:04 PM:
" let me get this straight, either i can go to jail or attend a program based on a medieval sky god. last i checked this is not a totalitarian state but a constitutional republic wwith no official state religion. i hope she wins and gets a substantial amount of money!! "
Alicia wrote on Mar 6, 2007 10:17 AM:
" why do we waste our time with people like this. SEND HER TO JAIL where she belongs. In court she had a choice... go to jail or go to meetings. She chose the meetings. If she doesn't like the meetings then maybe she will find her higher power in jail where a lot of other people do. She's a drug addict who is manipulating the system and were letting her. Do the crime.. Do the time. "
Tiffany B, UT wrote on Mar 6, 2007 3:08 PM:
" I know that it seems hopeless sometimes in recovery, but the 12 step programs literally saved my life. I have felt at times like a member of a mindless cult, & then I realize that the addict sitting on my shoulder is the one to blame. I think time in jail & institutions"the bitter ends" is what this girl needs to hit her rock bottom. I remember blaming the judge & everyone else in the midst of my addiction,but it got me absolutely no where. Let us all have a moment of silence for the addict who still suffers. "
Not already registered?
Tom wrote on Dec 7, 2006 7:47 PM: