Rogers Students Circumvent Firewalls
Action violates school policy, results in loss of computer privileges, in-school suspension
Last updated Thursday, March 13, 2008 6:25 PM CDT in News
By Lana F. Flowers
The Morning News
ROGERS - Students who used a proxy server to get around blocked Web sites at Rogers High School face three days of in-school suspension.
Junior Ashton Tate said that as of Thursday afternoon, she knew of more than 500 students who faced disciplinary action. Tate said she did not use the proxy server address or have it on her school account.
Senior Chelsey Fowler, a teacher's assistant, said she had the address and has used it to access Facebook and MySpace accounts during the school day.
Fowler also said more than 500 students were involved.
Other students used the proxy address to do schoolwork such as looking up "reproductive system" to complete research papers for anatomy class, Fowler said.
About 30 or 40 students had been discovered using the server by Thursday afternoon, said Bill Stringer, principal.
"Keep in mind that we may have more than that," Stringer said.
Administrators on Thursday discovered students found a proxy site or software to circumvent school firewalls and filters, Stringer said.
Administrators examined students' e-mail accounts to see if they used the proxy server or software, Stringer said.
Groups of 30 to 40 students at a time were called to high school offices so administrators could ask whether they used the proxy site and whether they knew it was inappropriate.
Most students said yes, Stringer said.
Students are required to sign an agreement stating they know about and understand school requirements and technology policies, including not circumventing firewalls, Stringer said.
Students who commit a first offense lose use of the school computer account for two weeks and get three days of in-school suspension. That means restrictions apply and disciplined students are separated from others, Stringer said.
"We're going to manage it. We have a large number" of students who violated the policy, Stringer said.
Fowler said she had not been disciplined as of Thursday afternoon but knows she may face in-school suspension. Seniors who used the proxy server also lose their exemptions from taking final exams, Fowler said.
Federal laws, including the Child Internet Protection Act, require districts to block some Web sites to protect minors from pornography and offshore gambling, said Gary Day, the district's director of technology.
The Rogers district uses a filter supplied by the Arkansas Department of Information Systems, Day said.
Legitimate sites like YouTube, CNN or TeacherTube, a site for educational videos, are blocked, Day said, because Web sites with streaming video or audio take up the high school's limited bandwidth.
"If I get a science lab full of anyone looking at a streaming video of an experiment, that will definitely saturate the connection," and slow down all school computers "to a point we can't function," Day said.
The filter also keeps students from downloading music and watching videos, he said.
"It's using a fairly finite resource - our Internet capacity - for entertainment, and that's not why they are in school," Day said.
Students can visit most research sites, he said.
"They can go to hundreds and hundreds and thousands of sites," Day said.
Tate said not being able to share files through Yahoo accounts frustrates some students, as file sharing might be necessary for group projects or some science experiments.
Teachers who want to access some Web sites that are blocked can request those sites be unblocked for a few hours or a day, Day said.
The blocked sites also frustrate Stringer. He has to access some administrative and educational Web sites from home to help him compile reports, because he can't access them at the high school.
"I understand that frustration level, but it still is not appropriate for me to go around the firewalls," Stringer said. "If we let this slide, what level do we let happen next?"
AT A GLANCE
What's A Proxy Server?
A proxy server is a site that is not blocked but allows a computer to access other Web sites from a blocked location. The proxy address circumvents filters and firewalls used on office or school computers.
Source: Rogers School District
Reader Comments (52 comment(s))
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AshtonTate wrote on Mar 13, 2008 7:39 PM:
" I am quite surprised that the school can punish students so severely for something that they may or may not have used. The principals required no evidence or witnesses that the students even used the proxy at all. It simply being on the account was enough, and I think it's outrageous. Students could have sent the proxy to other students who didn't use it or who didn't know it was sent to them. Even if you didn't know that the proxy existed on your account, you were still punished for it. "
benb wrote on Mar 13, 2008 7:43 PM:
" Also, they didn't ask us wether we knew it was against the policy to use it nor if it was inappropriate. They TOLD us.
And for the record, Mr. Stringer wasn't in the room the two times I was called to the office.
And one more thing, a number of teachers use the same program. Of course they can't be punished for the exact same "offense" that we have been convicted of.
Today in the ISS room, Crougar (Principal) specifically told us "As far as I'm concerned, you're in jail." "
And for the record, Mr. Stringer wasn't in the room the two times I was called to the office.
And one more thing, a number of teachers use the same program. Of course they can't be punished for the exact same "offense" that we have been convicted of.
Today in the ISS room, Crougar (Principal) specifically told us "As far as I'm concerned, you're in jail." "
BriBo wrote on Mar 13, 2008 7:44 PM:
" I understand everyone frustration because these does seem to be a bigger deal than it should be. You still have to give the administration the hand however because they did cover their tracks by making the students sign the agreement at the beginning of the year. That is where everyone is caught.
There are a few errors in this article. For one, according to an administrator I've talked to, the numbers are no where near 500. That is only a rumor. Another thing that is incorrect is that fact that seniors lose exemptions. It is stated that seniors only lose exemptions of the in school suspension is related to truancy, therefore this shouldn't effect exemptions.
It is hard for everyone because it doesn't seem like such a big deal. But the administration does have a reason to be more on alert after last years hacking. I understand, and many others, that the proxies weren't used for anything more than research...but you can't say everyone isn't because there have been two cases that I know of that connect the proxy and pornography use.
It is a hard situation to deal with considering we are dealing with something that isn't tangable, but the administration is only trying to do what they can. You might not agree with it, but they're only trying.
Instead of COMPLAING and BICKERING everyone should propose solutions of how this problem could be handled. "
There are a few errors in this article. For one, according to an administrator I've talked to, the numbers are no where near 500. That is only a rumor. Another thing that is incorrect is that fact that seniors lose exemptions. It is stated that seniors only lose exemptions of the in school suspension is related to truancy, therefore this shouldn't effect exemptions.
It is hard for everyone because it doesn't seem like such a big deal. But the administration does have a reason to be more on alert after last years hacking. I understand, and many others, that the proxies weren't used for anything more than research...but you can't say everyone isn't because there have been two cases that I know of that connect the proxy and pornography use.
It is a hard situation to deal with considering we are dealing with something that isn't tangable, but the administration is only trying to do what they can. You might not agree with it, but they're only trying.
Instead of COMPLAING and BICKERING everyone should propose solutions of how this problem could be handled. "
BriBo wrote on Mar 13, 2008 7:48 PM:
" You can request to get your account history looked at. If it is shown that you did not look at your pmail file (considering that's how some got the program.) Then you obviously never saw it, proving you never used it or had knowledge of it. However if it's seen that you opened the file while the program was there, then you had knowledge of it's exsistance therefore it was your responsibility to report it and discard of it. That is what the administrators have said, I'm just reporting.
and it's KRUGER... "
and it's KRUGER... "
Kreith01 wrote on Mar 13, 2008 9:36 PM:
" this article is just wrong. the people interviewed have no idea what is going on. Bribo is the only one who knows what happened so dont read any of the other stuff people have written. "
barrelJones wrote on Mar 13, 2008 10:30 PM:
" "You can request to get your account history looked at. If it is shown that you did not look at your pmail file (considering that's how some got the program.)"
This is actually -not- possible. Files on typical filesystems store three 'timestamps'. Modified, created, and last-accessed. It doesn't keep track of who "last-accessed" the file, and because the scan "accessed" every file in every folder these stamps no longer exist. (Nor are invidiual file accesses typically logged as that would take up excessive diskspace and in most cases be unnecessarily verbose). The administrators -claim- many things about what they can do tech-wise, btw. Still, I haven't heard of any cases of anyone not knowing they had this program.
Another point, the article says 'proxy address'. The events in question are related to a piece of software that is a slight bit more sophisticated than using 'proxy address' websites. Still, more could have been done to prevent the incident. The school uses filtering solutions to enforce it's Acceptable Use Policy and if the solutions were kept up to date and properly configured, the "UltraSurf" software would have been effectively disabled.
Quoting a blog post from 8e6labs.com (One of the blogs that the 8e6 filtering system employed by Rogers does not block in its 'blogs' category), "We recently tore open Ultrasurf (we can block it)." "
This is actually -not- possible. Files on typical filesystems store three 'timestamps'. Modified, created, and last-accessed. It doesn't keep track of who "last-accessed" the file, and because the scan "accessed" every file in every folder these stamps no longer exist. (Nor are invidiual file accesses typically logged as that would take up excessive diskspace and in most cases be unnecessarily verbose). The administrators -claim- many things about what they can do tech-wise, btw. Still, I haven't heard of any cases of anyone not knowing they had this program.
Another point, the article says 'proxy address'. The events in question are related to a piece of software that is a slight bit more sophisticated than using 'proxy address' websites. Still, more could have been done to prevent the incident. The school uses filtering solutions to enforce it's Acceptable Use Policy and if the solutions were kept up to date and properly configured, the "UltraSurf" software would have been effectively disabled.
Quoting a blog post from 8e6labs.com (One of the blogs that the 8e6 filtering system employed by Rogers does not block in its 'blogs' category), "We recently tore open Ultrasurf (we can block it)." "
barrelJones wrote on Mar 13, 2008 10:51 PM:
" I of course by no means condone AUP violations. The school -must- enforce the AUP, but putting them in a room with other violators of the AUP for three days at a time isn't going to help.
More should be done to keep students from using/needing circumvention software to do legitimate research and schoolwork, read: Increase the effort to block circumvention software and proxies by keeping software up to date, and secondly be more lax in categories that may have legitimate sites. Teachers can put in requests to have a site unblocked, but that's only useful if the teacher has everyone use one site, and everyone writes the same paper. It's difficult for a student to get a site unblocked, and the levels of administration the request would have to traverse makes doing so seem as likely to work as scaling greased-teflon wall. For inappropriate sites, it is probably okay to err on the side of false negatives, allowing sites that come through to be blocked on exception when discovered, rather than overblocking which frustrates legitimate users. As for the bandwidth issue, modern filtering software has the capability to selectively filter out high-bandwith media, either by extension or content-type headers, blocking the 'streaming videos' on a science site without blocking the rest of the possibly useful information. There is not enough work done in this area, and too much time spent on discovering and punishing children who -may- have circumvented what the administration admits is an overblocking, frustrating firewall. "
More should be done to keep students from using/needing circumvention software to do legitimate research and schoolwork, read: Increase the effort to block circumvention software and proxies by keeping software up to date, and secondly be more lax in categories that may have legitimate sites. Teachers can put in requests to have a site unblocked, but that's only useful if the teacher has everyone use one site, and everyone writes the same paper. It's difficult for a student to get a site unblocked, and the levels of administration the request would have to traverse makes doing so seem as likely to work as scaling greased-teflon wall. For inappropriate sites, it is probably okay to err on the side of false negatives, allowing sites that come through to be blocked on exception when discovered, rather than overblocking which frustrates legitimate users. As for the bandwidth issue, modern filtering software has the capability to selectively filter out high-bandwith media, either by extension or content-type headers, blocking the 'streaming videos' on a science site without blocking the rest of the possibly useful information. There is not enough work done in this area, and too much time spent on discovering and punishing children who -may- have circumvented what the administration admits is an overblocking, frustrating firewall. "
Bribo wrote on Mar 13, 2008 11:07 PM:
" Considering that you do have valid points. What would you say would be an appropreate way to handle these situations? You also have to realize that regardless of whether or not the filters were updated, there are always people trying to figure out ways around it. Just because they update doesn't mean that this problem would've been less of an issue. They would've just found another proxy to use. The problem at hand really is "Where do you draw the line?" Do you wait till even more students are causing problems...long before a problem ever occured...or at this precise moment in time? As I had said...this is a situation that is piticularly hard to deal with because there isn't something physical to deal with. In a class, a cell phone goes off. You take the cell phone away, the problem disappears. Contrast to this situation. You take the proxy away...a new one appears and the problem continues. I'm not saying I'm for or against the administration...I'm only stating the facts. I really would want to see someone who knows exsactly what to do (such as the fellow who talked about the files and not being able to look at what has happened) propose a solution to this whole problem, whether it be how to handle discipline or how to handle the blocking of such proxies. "
barrelJones wrote on Mar 13, 2008 11:14 PM:
" Thirdly, even with the bandwidth issue, legitmate video sites like "teachertube" could be made to not consume excessive bandwidth at all. FREE solutions such as the 'squid' caching proxy at a building-level (which many school districts use in conjunction with filtering software) would be able to, once a teacher watched a video, allow it to be delivered to many students without consuming any internet resources...
but.. wait a tick.
""""If I get a science lab full of anyone looking at a streaming video of an experiment, that will definitely saturate the connection,""""
None of the -Science labs- HAVE a computer for each student. They have -Science equipment-. In fact, when teachers attempt to show streaming videos they almost -ALWAYS- use a projector, which only uses ONE connection for a whole classroom of students (and almost every classroom has a projector and if it doesn't it's not very difficult for a teacher to check one out for a day).
There is almost no bandwidth issue for sites like "TeacherTube" that have only educational videos that students would never attempt to visit en masse. Claiming that "TeacherTube" has to be blocked is simply an excuse to do nothing about the currently draconian blocking policy, and use all the out-of-the-box settings on the filters without doing the -work- required to make the technology and internet experience at rogers a better one for both teachers, students, and even the admins. "
but.. wait a tick.
""""If I get a science lab full of anyone looking at a streaming video of an experiment, that will definitely saturate the connection,""""
None of the -Science labs- HAVE a computer for each student. They have -Science equipment-. In fact, when teachers attempt to show streaming videos they almost -ALWAYS- use a projector, which only uses ONE connection for a whole classroom of students (and almost every classroom has a projector and if it doesn't it's not very difficult for a teacher to check one out for a day).
There is almost no bandwidth issue for sites like "TeacherTube" that have only educational videos that students would never attempt to visit en masse. Claiming that "TeacherTube" has to be blocked is simply an excuse to do nothing about the currently draconian blocking policy, and use all the out-of-the-box settings on the filters without doing the -work- required to make the technology and internet experience at rogers a better one for both teachers, students, and even the admins. "
barrelJones wrote on Mar 13, 2008 11:23 PM:
" "Do you wait till even more students are causing problems...long before a problem ever occured...or at this precise moment in time? As I had said...this is a situation that is piticularly hard to deal with because there isn't something physical to deal with. In a class, a cell phone goes off. You take the cell phone away, the problem disappears ""
The solution is to underfilter rather than overfilter. Porn and gambling are rediculously easy to filter, there are obvious keywords and there is almost no occourence of legitimate sites being blocked as porn or gambling. The other categories need work, such as the "advertising" category blocking sites about ad agencies that could be useful for reasearch in "advertising" class. The "relgion/cults" category blocks many legit sites. I'm not saying that the kids shouldn't be punished for the proxies, They violated the AUP.
One other good (or supplemental) solution would be a filtering software that allowed the teacher to override a block temporarily with a password. This would quickly destroy all so-called "legit" proxy use and AUP violators could be punished with no controversy.
"
The solution is to underfilter rather than overfilter. Porn and gambling are rediculously easy to filter, there are obvious keywords and there is almost no occourence of legitimate sites being blocked as porn or gambling. The other categories need work, such as the "advertising" category blocking sites about ad agencies that could be useful for reasearch in "advertising" class. The "relgion/cults" category blocks many legit sites. I'm not saying that the kids shouldn't be punished for the proxies, They violated the AUP.
One other good (or supplemental) solution would be a filtering software that allowed the teacher to override a block temporarily with a password. This would quickly destroy all so-called "legit" proxy use and AUP violators could be punished with no controversy.
"
proxyuser_rhs89 wrote on Mar 13, 2008 11:28 PM:
" Ok that's not true there barrelJones, teachers can check out a cart of laptops that contain a laptop for each student that allows them on the "connection" in their "labs", which is just a classroom with lab tables. Since the school is being so ridiculous many students, including myself , are getting shirts made, and badges, and wrist bands and such to show their dislike for the way the school board and administration is handling everything. For instance all the Rogers School District cares about is how it looks in the eyes of the public! MANY teachers feel this way. I hear them talk about it all the time. The school would rather do a bunch of bull crap tests that mean nothing to the students futures, just another way for the school to get more money later on after those kids have left. The school doesn't help many students face to face. They blow you off, give you the "this is the way it is no other way is possible answer" and then tell you to go away or they'll write you up. I hope members of the newspaper read this and I believe they should do a deeper investigation on the school and there policies and see how well the school REALLY prepares students for life afterwards. I think Stringer is fake sometimes when he talks to the students, then when he talks to parents or administration, or even the school board. "
BriBo wrote on Mar 13, 2008 11:40 PM:
" ProxyUser...if you feel that way...it isn't the newspaper's responsibility to do such acts...it's yours. You are the one that knows what is going on. You are the one that knows who to talk to...you are the one that's been there. If we hand it off to the newspaper like they did this time...there is just going to be another error filled article written. People really need to stop complaining and get off they're rears and do something if they feel so strongly.
I'm not apposed to your idea about the shirts and such, but do you really think that is going to send a negitive message about the school? I would personally see a bunch of rebel-like students than an administration out of control. If you really want to set a point, you get facts, present them, and present solutions. Not bicker and complain when you have nothing to say. If you leave it in the hands of the people you don't want it to be in the hands of, what would you expect the out come to be? You (and by you I mean anyone in general) need to do something. "
I'm not apposed to your idea about the shirts and such, but do you really think that is going to send a negitive message about the school? I would personally see a bunch of rebel-like students than an administration out of control. If you really want to set a point, you get facts, present them, and present solutions. Not bicker and complain when you have nothing to say. If you leave it in the hands of the people you don't want it to be in the hands of, what would you expect the out come to be? You (and by you I mean anyone in general) need to do something. "
barrelJones wrote on Mar 13, 2008 11:40 PM:
" "Ok that's not true there barrelJones, teachers can check out a cart of laptops that contain a laptop for each student that allows them on the "connection" in their "labs", which is just a classroom with lab tables."
Have you -used- these laptops. They're far too slow to actually -play- streaming video. Even then, streaming video would
A) STILL be an AUP violation and a waste of resources with the current system
B) STILL be usable legitimately if a caching server were installed.
"For instance all the Rogers School District cares about is how it looks in the eyes of the public!"
This is a somewhat mean spirited accusation, the administration did away with mandatory MAPS, a project that many accused of being 'for the public eye', because students weren't seriously into it. You may think Stinger is fake, but if you honestly think he goes home every day not believing in what he's doing and contemplating how successfully he fooled us all you are having delusions out of spite.
"
Have you -used- these laptops. They're far too slow to actually -play- streaming video. Even then, streaming video would
A) STILL be an AUP violation and a waste of resources with the current system
B) STILL be usable legitimately if a caching server were installed.
"For instance all the Rogers School District cares about is how it looks in the eyes of the public!"
This is a somewhat mean spirited accusation, the administration did away with mandatory MAPS, a project that many accused of being 'for the public eye', because students weren't seriously into it. You may think Stinger is fake, but if you honestly think he goes home every day not believing in what he's doing and contemplating how successfully he fooled us all you are having delusions out of spite.
"
barrelJones wrote on Mar 13, 2008 11:44 PM:
" continued..
"The school would rather do a bunch of bull crap tests"
The school is increasingly required -BY LAW- to do "bull crap tests".
Want to change it? Lobby against and vote against crap like "no child left behind". It may be ridiculous, but as it stands there's a limited amount of taxpayer funds and the government has to create some way to compete for them. "accountability", or some crap. Your test scores win next years students new text books and lab equipment, and last years students scores won what you used. "
"The school would rather do a bunch of bull crap tests"
The school is increasingly required -BY LAW- to do "bull crap tests".
Want to change it? Lobby against and vote against crap like "no child left behind". It may be ridiculous, but as it stands there's a limited amount of taxpayer funds and the government has to create some way to compete for them. "accountability", or some crap. Your test scores win next years students new text books and lab equipment, and last years students scores won what you used. "
BriBo wrote on Mar 14, 2008 12:30 AM:
" barrelJones...you are my new friend...thank you for what you just said...I absolutely back you up. "
barrelJones wrote on Mar 14, 2008 12:51 AM:
" Eh, I just don't care much for people being quick to complain, and actually care somewhat about the fact I'll get to vote this year. "
arkietex wrote on Mar 14, 2008 1:31 AM:
" The Rogers High School is doing the right thing. If these students were working at any Major Corporation, this would also not be allowed.It is a good lesson on the real world. You log into You Tube or My Space at a work location, you can lose your job. 3 days ISS is nothing compared to loosing your job because you wanted to message your friends while at school. It is a security issue as well as taking of needed bandwidth. Say one of those videos contained an imbedded link to a Child Porn site? This happens everyday. That would be a heck of a lot worse than ISS. Even sites that appear to be harmless contain streaming files that can disable some of the most hardy computer security systems. "
VHugo wrote on Mar 14, 2008 4:26 AM:
" 3 days of ISS is absolutely insane. A slap on the wrist and a review of the user agreement would be more appropriate. I have to give the kids props for defeating the firewall. Perhaps the network admin should put down the coffee and doughnuts and work on a more intelligent, robust system. "
Bribo wrote on Mar 14, 2008 5:43 AM:
" A slap on the wrist huh? Do you not think that after last year's hacking of the school system they would be more on alert of the network? Last year the students who hacked messed with grades, stole money from people's lunch accounts, and messed with the school calender. Do you not think that was enough of an example? Not only where the students informed of the expectations via the handbook, they were also explicitly told VERBALLY at the begining of the year to not mess with the network...PERIOD. Do you not think that was enough of a warning? If they strung banners, would that be enough of a warning? This apparently doesn't teach everyone a lesson either. Students have been called down for this problem, given their punishment, and then they have to be called again because they just turned around and began using the proxies once again. So is it the administration that has a problem, or the students who will test the limits and argue once the administration says they've had enough.
Arkietex is correct. If you were caught doing this same thing at work, you could get fired. These are high school students for goodness sakes! They should know what is wrong and right. They are not little kids anymore and should not be treated as such. "
Arkietex is correct. If you were caught doing this same thing at work, you could get fired. These are high school students for goodness sakes! They should know what is wrong and right. They are not little kids anymore and should not be treated as such. "
arkietex wrote on Mar 14, 2008 7:44 AM:
" Years ago I was working with a very large client in Bentonville. Our aoftware developer was on the East Coast, though they would occasionally come into Bentonville. We were not only developing this firmware, but also trying to get the client to buy it. Files were being sent over to the client for review prior to installing them through FTP method. We got a call one day from the end user asking that we attend a meeting with some pretty higher ups. Thinking this was our chance to get the contract and it would be a meeting of hand shaking and talk to a big contract..Boy! were we taken off guard when they were there to tell us that one of the files contained an inbedded picture of what appeared to be gay porn. That had to be one of the worst meetings I had ever been in. All the months of work and the thrill and exhilaration went down the tubes because we all got reprimanded and the software company was band from every selling to this client as well as all the engineers who touched the file and did not stop the image from being sent over were fired. That children is what happens in the real world when you do not follow the rules. There is no suspension. You loose the job your family depends on you to have in order to eat or basically to live. Companies loose contracts meant to support their business. "
flamingo79 wrote on Mar 14, 2008 9:32 AM:
" "Perhaps the network admin should put down the coffee and doughnuts and work on a more intelligent, robust system" - BINGO. In the end, that is the answer to this fiasco. Stop the band-aids and get a REAL IT department - it's what taxpayer's are paying for. Regarding the post earlier - it is ridiculous to claim that if this happened in a corporation the accused would be fired. Tell me, what corporation would/could "fire" 200 employees at one time? It would be the Director of the IT department who would be disciplined, because if an "abuse" such as this would have happened - it would be due to that person's incompetence in doing their job. "
VHugo wrote on Mar 14, 2008 9:34 AM:
" The only "lesson" here is that mediocre people can impose arbitrary and cruel punishment just because they hold the power to do so. A large percentage of high school students are much more intelligent than the teachers charged with instructing them. In college, the education majors come from the bottom middle percentile of achievers; not the best but not the worst. Let's look at this incident in perspective--nobody was stabbed in the jaw, no one downloaded goat porn. Just a slap on the wrist and we can all move on. "
ConcernedCitizen wrote on Mar 14, 2008 9:45 AM:
" You kids got the punishment you deserved. You broke the rules. Welcome to the real world. Its time to quit your posting and get back to class. "
occams_razor wrote on Mar 14, 2008 11:21 AM:
" Hello?
Let me get this straight. The students who actually broke the rules aren't accountable for their actions?
If the "network police" can't prevent a violation, it means they should be disciplined? Every time someone finds a loophole?
Right.
"
Let me get this straight. The students who actually broke the rules aren't accountable for their actions?
If the "network police" can't prevent a violation, it means they should be disciplined? Every time someone finds a loophole?
Right.
"
occams_razor wrote on Mar 14, 2008 11:21 AM:
" Hello?
Let me get this straight. The students who actually broke the rules aren't accountable for their actions?
If the "network police" can't prevent a violation, it means they should be disciplined? Every time someone finds a loophole?
Right.
"
Let me get this straight. The students who actually broke the rules aren't accountable for their actions?
If the "network police" can't prevent a violation, it means they should be disciplined? Every time someone finds a loophole?
Right.
"
ITSecurityGuy wrote on Mar 14, 2008 12:15 PM:
" It is not the job of the IT Director to stop you from doing something stupid. Your job as a student is to learn and follow the rules you agreed to at the beginning of the year. When you are caught breaking those rules you get in trouble whether there was a way to stop you or not. I have sent people to HR for doing the same thing these students have done and they are not given a slap on the wrist. The Rogers administration is doing the right thing in enforcing their policies. "
yeahright wrote on Mar 14, 2008 12:25 PM:
" If the students are so much smarter than the teachers at Rogers HS, why are none of them able to write a basic English sentence on this website? It seems to me they should go back and brush up on their spelling and grammar before claiming to be so much smarter than everyone else. "
proxyuser_rhs89 wrote on Mar 14, 2008 12:44 PM:
" OK ladies and gentlemen,
Let's not do the immature that guy made fun of me, so i'm gonna make fun back. It's stupid and doesn't help anything. It makes things more upseting and rediculous.
I just spoke with Kruger today at lunch not 35 minutes ago. He said, "Students will still have exemption. You only lose it for grades, and truancy." And the number of students is now 260. Not 500. And what about the teachers that were using the proxy. They should be just as "guilty" as us students. In fact, they are older and should know the rules better. But they are only getting the slaps on the wrist. The majority of the students who are in trouble are Honors kids, National Honors Society members, A and B students, and student council, who never get in trouble. Many in fact have never had ISS. And these kids lose their scholarships for NHS, they lose their Honors, or get kicked out of student council. What does that show you. We let the Government get away with blowing an entire country up for an unapparant reason, but we'll slam kids who get to websites they shouldn't with punishment, keep these kids from getting these scholarships that will help them through college and learn how to make our world a better and more advanced place.
I think it's bad that Truancy gets less punishment than this! "
Let's not do the immature that guy made fun of me, so i'm gonna make fun back. It's stupid and doesn't help anything. It makes things more upseting and rediculous.
I just spoke with Kruger today at lunch not 35 minutes ago. He said, "Students will still have exemption. You only lose it for grades, and truancy." And the number of students is now 260. Not 500. And what about the teachers that were using the proxy. They should be just as "guilty" as us students. In fact, they are older and should know the rules better. But they are only getting the slaps on the wrist. The majority of the students who are in trouble are Honors kids, National Honors Society members, A and B students, and student council, who never get in trouble. Many in fact have never had ISS. And these kids lose their scholarships for NHS, they lose their Honors, or get kicked out of student council. What does that show you. We let the Government get away with blowing an entire country up for an unapparant reason, but we'll slam kids who get to websites they shouldn't with punishment, keep these kids from getting these scholarships that will help them through college and learn how to make our world a better and more advanced place.
I think it's bad that Truancy gets less punishment than this! "
munchkin18 wrote on Mar 14, 2008 1:16 PM:
" I think that this whole thing is getting really out of hand and stupid. What we did was wrong and shouldn't have happened we signed an agreement aobut it at the first of the year. At the same time i don't understand how there going to put over 5oo students in iss? Many students get caught with their cell phones and they don't get in trouble with it but yet we get in worse trouble for something so stupid. There taking away class time that they say we not engaged in learning in to be put in iss and do nothing. I think that they need to rethink the punishment and realize what they are doing. The seniors don't have that much time left and this is affecting us because iam a senior. "
arkietex wrote on Mar 14, 2008 1:22 PM:
" The students are smarter than the teachers?? Are you serious? That is the problem with most young adults in our culture today; you think you are smarter than the older generation. Wake up. There is a real world out there and it does not have Mommy and Daddy along side of you to take care of you. The actions of these students was immature and does not tell me they are smarter than their teachers only that they are a bunch of narcissistic juveniles if they think that they are. "
stronghands88 wrote on Mar 14, 2008 2:56 PM:
" I don't understand why there are computers in school. They are just fancy file cabinets. All electrical devices should be banned from schools. They are just dumbing down our country. What happened to using a book or your brain. People today are just plain lazy, but also too impatient. Heck I think they should ban even those cash registers that tell people how much change to give, the checkers would still key in the amounts so the store could still keep track. But now the checker and the purchaser will have to use their brain. "
proxyuser_rhs89 wrote on Mar 14, 2008 3:10 PM:
" I do agree some people overuse technology and are dumbing themselves down. But this country and economy needs technology EVERYWHERE! And Mr. Stronghands88, you just used a computer to comment on this article. It's very hipocritical to say that stuff when you could have written a letter instead... "
BriBo wrote on Mar 14, 2008 3:49 PM:
" You guys do have to realize that the punishment could've been much worse. In fact, I heard a student (and as we know, we shouldn't take anything for fact) talking about how they were thinking about giving them all OSS. OSS would let all the students be out of school for the time alotted at the same time because there wouldn't be any space issues. Only problem with that is that if they were given OSS then exemptions would be taken away and situations would become even worse.
I don't remember anyone saying how students are far smarter than teachers. If that were the case, then why even have school? I think it's very immature to start bringing up topics that have no relevance to the actual article.
ProxyUser, thank you for giving facts about the actual situation. Half of the reason people are so uptight about the situation is because they have been given false information. The more truth that is revealed the more people can come to an understanding. Not nessisarily agreement, but understanding. "
I don't remember anyone saying how students are far smarter than teachers. If that were the case, then why even have school? I think it's very immature to start bringing up topics that have no relevance to the actual article.
ProxyUser, thank you for giving facts about the actual situation. Half of the reason people are so uptight about the situation is because they have been given false information. The more truth that is revealed the more people can come to an understanding. Not nessisarily agreement, but understanding. "
occams_razor wrote on Mar 14, 2008 4:16 PM:
" Bribo, read VHugo's post.
This is simple. There is a policy. All the kids acknowledged it was there. It is their responsibility to know and comply with it.
The principal really doesn't have much to do with the issue. Nor do the teachers who may or may not have used the proxy software.
You think the punishment didn't fit the crime? Fine, but the punishment was not something arbitrarily made up by the principal. It was published as part of the policy.
So there it is - accept the punishment as mature individuals, then work to get the policy changed.
As for the idea there should be no computers in school, that is a bit silly. Banning computers would not necessarily improve mental fitness. Given some of the reasoning being used in this discussion, a mandatory course in logic would be a good start.
"
This is simple. There is a policy. All the kids acknowledged it was there. It is their responsibility to know and comply with it.
The principal really doesn't have much to do with the issue. Nor do the teachers who may or may not have used the proxy software.
You think the punishment didn't fit the crime? Fine, but the punishment was not something arbitrarily made up by the principal. It was published as part of the policy.
So there it is - accept the punishment as mature individuals, then work to get the policy changed.
As for the idea there should be no computers in school, that is a bit silly. Banning computers would not necessarily improve mental fitness. Given some of the reasoning being used in this discussion, a mandatory course in logic would be a good start.
"
occams_razor wrote on Mar 14, 2008 4:21 PM:
" VHugo, better take a seat.
For that argument to *start* being meaningful, you'll need to post the average SAT score of all the students getting ISS and compare them.
Look into that logic class.
"
For that argument to *start* being meaningful, you'll need to post the average SAT score of all the students getting ISS and compare them.
Look into that logic class.
"
yeahright wrote on Mar 14, 2008 4:24 PM:
" VHugo, your ability to find a morse code conversion site and use it to post curse words really impresses me. You must have gotten a 1600 on your SATs. "
stronghands88 wrote on Mar 14, 2008 5:19 PM:
" Either I didn't make myself clearly understood or you didn't get it. Computers shouldn't be in high schools neither should calculators. What would people do if there were an attack on the nations power grid and the power went out. We would be in a world of hurt, the only ones that could help us recover is the old folks who developed this because they would be the ones that new how to use the old technology using their heads and hands in other words their mind and a slide rule. We need to get back to the 3 r's,in school. It takes a lot to destroy a book but I can mess up a computer in five seconds. "
BriBo wrote on Mar 14, 2008 5:53 PM:
" Occam_Razor I don't know if your first post was directed towards me...because I agree with you...not disagree. "
barrelJones wrote on Mar 14, 2008 6:07 PM:
" "Either I didn't make myself clearly understood or you didn't get it. Computers shouldn't be in high schools neither should calculators.""
Okay, this a ridiculous argument from start to finish. School is intended to train students for the modern world, and it is impossible to get through life these days without using -some- sort of computer system. Got a bank account? a credit card? All of your 'money' is just a number in a computer's memory. This is whether you like it or not an irreversible situation and if you honestly want to intentionally keep children from knowing anything. As for calculators, they have real use in many cases. Calculus class disallows their use but for things like Physics, they allow much more course material to be covered in less time because students aren't doing -long division- by hand with insanely large numbers for the entire class hour. "What would people do if there were an attack on the nations power grid and the power went out." is a premise for terror propaganda or possibly a nifty action movie.. But in all honesty not a reality. Yes, computers can be used to do a lot of work for you that could be done easily without one, but there are still very hard problems they are necessary for. Bring this argument back when you're qualified. (like if you have a Maths degree.) "
Okay, this a ridiculous argument from start to finish. School is intended to train students for the modern world, and it is impossible to get through life these days without using -some- sort of computer system. Got a bank account? a credit card? All of your 'money' is just a number in a computer's memory. This is whether you like it or not an irreversible situation and if you honestly want to intentionally keep children from knowing anything. As for calculators, they have real use in many cases. Calculus class disallows their use but for things like Physics, they allow much more course material to be covered in less time because students aren't doing -long division- by hand with insanely large numbers for the entire class hour. "What would people do if there were an attack on the nations power grid and the power went out." is a premise for terror propaganda or possibly a nifty action movie.. But in all honesty not a reality. Yes, computers can be used to do a lot of work for you that could be done easily without one, but there are still very hard problems they are necessary for. Bring this argument back when you're qualified. (like if you have a Maths degree.) "
barrelJones wrote on Mar 14, 2008 6:26 PM:
" @ITSecurityGuy "It is not the job of the IT Director to stop you from doing something stupid."
It -IS- up to the IT director to properly secure the network though. Not only would the program in question would have been disabled (preventing unsafe internet traffic into the network) by simply updating the filter software and ticking a checkbox, the network is configured in a such a way that -any- user on the network can drop a file into -any- other user's 'home folder' and the file ACTUALLY CHANGES ITS OWNERSHIP TO THE USER WHO'S FOLDER IT WAS DROPPED INTO, erasing the evidence the file was put there by someone else. Many students had no idea that the program in question had been dropped into their folders, (and many others can be overheard speculating planting it on people they dislike in the hallways) but their scanning process also destroyed the file access timestamps, and any evidence a student could present to show that they had -never used- the program. Even worse, supposedly many students have heard names similar to theirs called to the office and walked down there and gotten thrown in ISS simply because they were there, on the grounds they 'must have a guilty conscience'. From a standpoint of proof-of-guilt, the administration is on a senseless manhunt and has little grounds to punish anyone except for possibly their own tech dept. Punishment is in order, but these recent events have hardly served to 'provide an environment of educational excellence' "
It -IS- up to the IT director to properly secure the network though. Not only would the program in question would have been disabled (preventing unsafe internet traffic into the network) by simply updating the filter software and ticking a checkbox, the network is configured in a such a way that -any- user on the network can drop a file into -any- other user's 'home folder' and the file ACTUALLY CHANGES ITS OWNERSHIP TO THE USER WHO'S FOLDER IT WAS DROPPED INTO, erasing the evidence the file was put there by someone else. Many students had no idea that the program in question had been dropped into their folders, (and many others can be overheard speculating planting it on people they dislike in the hallways) but their scanning process also destroyed the file access timestamps, and any evidence a student could present to show that they had -never used- the program. Even worse, supposedly many students have heard names similar to theirs called to the office and walked down there and gotten thrown in ISS simply because they were there, on the grounds they 'must have a guilty conscience'. From a standpoint of proof-of-guilt, the administration is on a senseless manhunt and has little grounds to punish anyone except for possibly their own tech dept. Punishment is in order, but these recent events have hardly served to 'provide an environment of educational excellence' "
barrelJones wrote on Mar 14, 2008 6:29 PM:
" Right, my earlier post I left a few words out, replace " and if you honestly want to intentionally keep children from knowing anything." with "and if you honestly want to intentionally keep children from knowing anything about how to -use- computers and -how- they work then you a preparing them to be at an extremely severe disadvantage in life and you are therefore not someone who we should listen to about how to educate our children."
Thanks ;) "
Thanks ;) "
stronghands88 wrote on Mar 14, 2008 9:04 PM:
" I guess some of you don't keep up with weapons technology. EMP not to mention the devices that are in development to create them. "
barrelJones wrote on Mar 14, 2008 10:30 PM:
" "I guess some of you don't keep up with weapons technology. EMP not to mention the devices that are in development to create them. ""
So we should stay away from anything that could ever possibly be attacked? Tall buildings? Power plants? Watter supplies? Houses? EMP weaponry is roughly next to nuclear weaponry on the hard-to-get-your-hands-on scale, by the way. Also the government's most vital equipment is EMP Shielded (see the TEMPEST project).
You are simply scaremongering. It's not as if using a computer makes you unable to survive without one. This sort of flawed, fallacious logic isn't going to help you get rid of the new technology you seem to hate and fear so much. "
So we should stay away from anything that could ever possibly be attacked? Tall buildings? Power plants? Watter supplies? Houses? EMP weaponry is roughly next to nuclear weaponry on the hard-to-get-your-hands-on scale, by the way. Also the government's most vital equipment is EMP Shielded (see the TEMPEST project).
You are simply scaremongering. It's not as if using a computer makes you unable to survive without one. This sort of flawed, fallacious logic isn't going to help you get rid of the new technology you seem to hate and fear so much. "
proxyuser_rhs89 wrote on Mar 15, 2008 12:33 AM:
" Oh and today they started blocking the students out of their accounts. They said they wouldn't until the tuesday after spring break. I would know, they blocked mine... "
barrelJones wrote on Mar 15, 2008 12:34 AM:
" "Oh and today they started blocking the students out of their accounts. They said they wouldn't until the tuesday after spring break. I would know, they blocked mine"
This has happened to a lot of people, and yes, it is ridiculous. -MANY- students were assured they would have their accounts until spring break so they could get in their final grades in their computer classes. "
This has happened to a lot of people, and yes, it is ridiculous. -MANY- students were assured they would have their accounts until spring break so they could get in their final grades in their computer classes. "
Bribo wrote on Mar 15, 2008 4:28 PM:
" Barrel...they did have their accounts until springbreak. ProxyUser even confirmed that by saying that today, March 15th, a Saturday, the day springbreak starts, they started blocking people. So they did have access till spring break.
If they start blocking people for this week...does that count as one week?
I do agree that teachers would need punishment if they are going to punish students...but how exsactly would they go about that situation? Who even knows what the teachers get? Everyone is saying that they get a slap on the wrist. But would exsactly be a slap on the wrist in this case? Do they get less pay? Do they get a referal? What do they get? I think that hasn't been made public yet because it hasn't been dealt with just yet. And even then, what would it be? You can't fire however many teachers there are because you can't have a functioning school without teachers. If they were to get fired it would be at the end of the school year as to not disrupt with education. But what would you guys suggest? Once again, I'm not saying I'm for or against anything...I merely want to spark conversation because the more truth/conversation/idea swapping you get the more that you can come to an understanding about situations and how to deal with them. "
If they start blocking people for this week...does that count as one week?
I do agree that teachers would need punishment if they are going to punish students...but how exsactly would they go about that situation? Who even knows what the teachers get? Everyone is saying that they get a slap on the wrist. But would exsactly be a slap on the wrist in this case? Do they get less pay? Do they get a referal? What do they get? I think that hasn't been made public yet because it hasn't been dealt with just yet. And even then, what would it be? You can't fire however many teachers there are because you can't have a functioning school without teachers. If they were to get fired it would be at the end of the school year as to not disrupt with education. But what would you guys suggest? Once again, I'm not saying I'm for or against anything...I merely want to spark conversation because the more truth/conversation/idea swapping you get the more that you can come to an understanding about situations and how to deal with them. "
barrelJones wrote on Mar 15, 2008 4:34 PM:
" for the record, proxyUser made that post shortly after midnight on the 15th, making the 'today' he was referring to probably the 14th. And he couldn't exactly know his account had been disabled from home, so he was referring to being at school on the 14th. I also saw accounts that had already been disabled on the 14th, personally.
And @chevman, the handbook specifically states that AUP violations -will- result in a termination of computer privileges and likely be accompanied with disciplinary action. "
And @chevman, the handbook specifically states that AUP violations -will- result in a termination of computer privileges and likely be accompanied with disciplinary action. "
Not already registered?
benb wrote on Mar 13, 2008 7:33 PM:
You only get a bandwidth issue of you download excessively large files from the internet and use up the amount of data that your ISP provides. It's pointless to download such large files at school and could be done with or without the firewall anyway. Why then would they need a scapegoat for their bandwidth problems? "