Study Shows Economic Downside Of Illegal Immigration Crackdown, Coalition Says
Last updated Monday, April 7, 2008 7:35 PM CDT in News
By John Lyon
THE MORNING NEWS
LITTLE ROCK -- Arkansas' economy would suffer if the state were to pass punitive legislation targeting immigrants, members of the Arkansas Friendship Coalition said Monday, citing a recent study conducted in Oklahoma to back up their argument.
At a news conference at the state Capitol, members of the coalition -- which opposes punitive laws aimed at immigrants in Arkansas -- quoted from a March economic study projecting that anti-illegal immigration legislation passed last year in Oklahoma could lead to an annual reduction in Oklahoma's gross state product of about $1.8 billion.
"The projection is their economy will suffer, and suffer greatly," said the Rev. Steve Copley of North Little Rock, chairman of the coalition of church, civic and business organizations.
Two protesters attended the news conference and held up signs expressing opposition to the coalition's position.
Copley said the coalition scheduled Monday's news conference before learning that the group Secure Arkansas has filed a proposed ballot initiative that would require verification of immigration status before Arkansans over 13 could receive public benefits.
If that measure gets on the ballot, the coalition will raise money to campaign against it, Copley said.
"We oppose it based on the fact that we're opposed to any kind of state or local law that would be punitive toward the immigrant community, and it's a federal issue, not a state issue that the state can solve, firstly. Second of all, it's flawed. In many ways it replicates (existing laws)," he said.
The economic study, commissioned by the Oklahoma Bankers Association, considered the impact of the Oklahoma Taxpayer and Citizen Protection Act of 2007. The law requires law enforcement officers in Oklahoma to check the immigration status of anyone arrested on a felony or drunken driving charge, restricts the ability of illegal immigrants to obtain driver's licenses or public assistance and makes it a felony for U.S. citizens to knowingly provide shelter, transportation or employment to illegal immigrants.
According to the study, the law is likely to result in an exodus of foreign-born workers from Oklahoma, including many who are in the country legally, and would lead to a worker shortage.
"Due to the mixed residency status of many foreign-born families and communities, it is unlikely that the legislation's incentives to out migrate are limited to undocumented workers," researchers with Economic Impact Group of Edmond, Okla., wrote in a report on the study.
The study projected that if 25,000 foreign-born workers left Oklahoma, the gross state product would see an annual reduction of $785,000. If 90,000 foreign-born workers left the state, the gross state product would be reduced annually by $3 billion, it said.
The most probable scenario is that about 50,000 workers, or about half of Oklahoma's foreign-born labor force, will leave the state, the researchers wrote. That would cost the state 3 percent of its total work force and reduce the gross state product annually by nearly $1.8 billion, according to the study.
"We can see what Oklahoma is about to go through. We certainly don't want that to occur in the state of Arkansas, especially when our economy may be entering a time of recession," Copley said.
Kenny Wallis of North Little Rock, president of Keep Arkansas Legal and one of two protesters who attended the news conference, said studies like the one commissioned by the Oklahoma Bankers Association look only at economics while ignoring issues such as criminal activity by illegal immigrants.
"Also, many of these studies don't differentiate between legal immigrants and illegals," Wallis said.
Reader Comments (108 comment(s))
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keeparkansaslegal wrote on Apr 8, 2008 12:01 AM:
" Immigration reform activist talked about the Francis Shooting in Arkansas and the fact that illegals don't benefit an economy along with other issues. Footage from this event will be shown soon from the keeparkansaslegal blog "
sunflowerboat wrote on Apr 8, 2008 4:25 AM:
" this article is more smoke they use the term "targeting immigrants" no one is targeting immigrants not even oklahoma as the article implys what we are targeting is ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS more baloney from big business. "
cybertech wrote on Apr 8, 2008 4:41 AM:
" So here they go again. The AFC using the term "immigrant" and "illegal immigrant" interchangeably hoping that so many of us are to DUMB to notice!
Look if there are any of you out there that belong to such a coalition or special interest group, or you are just plain sympathetic to illegal immigrants (aliens) the terms "immigrant" and "illegal immigrant" are mutually exclusive terms and mean two very different things and thus can not be interchanged!
Here is what they dont want you to understand in such a study! They present this study as an all encompassing study hoping to sway you to believe that this would be a long term event when it wont be.
Sure any state enacting laws like Oklahoma and several other states will take some economic hit, but only in the short term.
Those immigrants or legal immigrants that would exodus with the illegals are doing so out of ignorance because they dont understand because groups like this also work hard to convince them that any anti illegal immigration laws are directed against them as well when they are not!
Contd......... "
Look if there are any of you out there that belong to such a coalition or special interest group, or you are just plain sympathetic to illegal immigrants (aliens) the terms "immigrant" and "illegal immigrant" are mutually exclusive terms and mean two very different things and thus can not be interchanged!
Here is what they dont want you to understand in such a study! They present this study as an all encompassing study hoping to sway you to believe that this would be a long term event when it wont be.
Sure any state enacting laws like Oklahoma and several other states will take some economic hit, but only in the short term.
Those immigrants or legal immigrants that would exodus with the illegals are doing so out of ignorance because they dont understand because groups like this also work hard to convince them that any anti illegal immigration laws are directed against them as well when they are not!
Contd......... "
cybertech wrote on Apr 8, 2008 4:50 AM:
" Contd.....................
As well any short term losses incurred from a mass exodus of illegal immigrants is really not that bad compared to negative impact they are already having not only on the economy but society as a whole. Oh but these groups dont want you to know that or even understand it!
In so far as causing a shortage of workers? Now there is the biggest smoke screen I have ever seen or heard and it consists of so much bunk! They want you so badly to believe that no legal citizen would step up to fill these jobs but I hate to tell them that there are many legal citizens that ALREADY work these jobs both foreign born and native and there will be many more that will step up to fill empty positions left behind should any exodus occur!
Sorry but their study reeks of horse pucky, yea I said it, horse pucky, and well they are so full of it themselves and walk through life with blinders on!
Anything they have to say, unfortunately, is not worth the ink they use to print it! JMO! "
As well any short term losses incurred from a mass exodus of illegal immigrants is really not that bad compared to negative impact they are already having not only on the economy but society as a whole. Oh but these groups dont want you to know that or even understand it!
In so far as causing a shortage of workers? Now there is the biggest smoke screen I have ever seen or heard and it consists of so much bunk! They want you so badly to believe that no legal citizen would step up to fill these jobs but I hate to tell them that there are many legal citizens that ALREADY work these jobs both foreign born and native and there will be many more that will step up to fill empty positions left behind should any exodus occur!
Sorry but their study reeks of horse pucky, yea I said it, horse pucky, and well they are so full of it themselves and walk through life with blinders on!
Anything they have to say, unfortunately, is not worth the ink they use to print it! JMO! "
ozarks wrote on Apr 8, 2008 7:05 AM:
" I just want to cast my ballot to throw these ILLEGALS out and put the companies that hired them and brought them here on notice that they too are criminals. There is only one way to find out how the ILLEGALS effect Arkansas' economy and that is for the ILLEGALS to move to San Fransico. They are asking for ILLEGALS to come and be supported. So, go. I apprectae the comments I have read. If I know when these folks were going to make these comments that has to merit abd I would protect them. "
ozarks wrote on Apr 8, 2008 7:08 AM:
" Wow? Last sentence was to be: If I knew when these folks were going to make these comments that has no merit, I would go and protest them. Sorry, I am just frustraed about these kind of worthless statements by this group. "
ProudVetHogFan wrote on Apr 8, 2008 7:38 AM:
" Someone should study the effect that illegal immigration has on the local/state economy when you speak of Crime, Drugs, Graffiti, Overcrowding of single family residences, Unsightly conditions, irreversible decline of property maintenance, and not to mention what all of this does to the property value of citizens homes. "
Boz wrote on Apr 8, 2008 7:41 AM:
" I wonder where these coalitions are when murderers are up for parole? I wander have they read the Immigration and Nationality Act? I have read and studied great deals of it. We are a soveriegn country but the states do have the right to enforce their own laws. I do not see Arkansas being threatened economically if ILLEGAL immigrants were denied benefits they DON'T deserve. I have gone several times to get "benefits" and have been denied because I myself make too much and don't have three or more children. I have stood in line at the store behind people with "Benefits" and they only complained about what kind of beans they could get. That subject had to interpret for the person using the Benefits.
As an economic down turn, I think ILLEGAL immigration is for the crisis. More Big cars on the road, I rarely see families in little hondas. Medicare crisis, go to Willow Creek, Washington Regional, Northwest Medical. Why do I have to pay $3,000 for a kidney stone when I have heard several times no insurance in Spanish?
I wish that this coalition would read the INA as well as everybody else and realize that if your in this country you have to follow the law. Remember the kid who got lashings for Graffiti. There's a great idea. Wake up Arkansas "
As an economic down turn, I think ILLEGAL immigration is for the crisis. More Big cars on the road, I rarely see families in little hondas. Medicare crisis, go to Willow Creek, Washington Regional, Northwest Medical. Why do I have to pay $3,000 for a kidney stone when I have heard several times no insurance in Spanish?
I wish that this coalition would read the INA as well as everybody else and realize that if your in this country you have to follow the law. Remember the kid who got lashings for Graffiti. There's a great idea. Wake up Arkansas "
ProudVetHogFan wrote on Apr 8, 2008 7:41 AM:
" You know i thought i had said everything i neede to say but then i read the very next story about the FEDS indicting these good, upstanding, hard working citizenson meth ring charges. Did anyone happen to look at the names of the men being charged? Just food for thought. "
Tspud wrote on Apr 8, 2008 8:54 AM:
" As usual this paper puts this out as Gospel. Isn't the "Arkansas Friendship Coalition" like the fox in charge of the hen house? My take on these reports is, Figures lie and liars figure. "
cybertech wrote on Apr 8, 2008 9:17 AM:
" Here is the funny thing about this "Mass Exodus" that Oklahoma was supposed to face.
As of yet it has NOT happened. They said the same thing about Georgia and guess what? It has NOT happened!
Not a "Mass Exodus" anyway. Here is the most plausible thing that will happen. The illegals will leave most likely yes, but not in the way that AFC is proposing. Most likely they will trickle out and any economic hit will be trivial and short lived anyway, in that as those illegals trickle out, legal citizens will trickle in and step up to fill jobs vacated by illegals.
Again most likely the economic hit will be short term and minimal and will be no where near as bad as the economic and social hit we are already facing and groups like AFC refuse to acknowledge and that is the costs incurred on the state and legal citizens of said state with respect to crime, education, medical, welfare, and the like when these a good number of illegals take advantage of those services by less than legal means! "
As of yet it has NOT happened. They said the same thing about Georgia and guess what? It has NOT happened!
Not a "Mass Exodus" anyway. Here is the most plausible thing that will happen. The illegals will leave most likely yes, but not in the way that AFC is proposing. Most likely they will trickle out and any economic hit will be trivial and short lived anyway, in that as those illegals trickle out, legal citizens will trickle in and step up to fill jobs vacated by illegals.
Again most likely the economic hit will be short term and minimal and will be no where near as bad as the economic and social hit we are already facing and groups like AFC refuse to acknowledge and that is the costs incurred on the state and legal citizens of said state with respect to crime, education, medical, welfare, and the like when these a good number of illegals take advantage of those services by less than legal means! "
riptide wrote on Apr 8, 2008 9:25 AM:
" So these people are saying not to enforce the law? They need to tell the cops what laws they can enforce or more realistically, what people they can enforce the law on. "
Fayetteville wrote on Apr 8, 2008 9:28 AM:
" "Rev" Copely is a paid shill for the big business players who don't care one whit about ordinary Arkansans as long as they can pad their bottom lines.
That this man would represent himself as a compassionate defender of disadvantaged people is ABSOLUTE DECEPTION, and unworthy of his self-proclaimed "Reverend" status.
He only represents the big money interests that formed the "ARKANSAS FRIENDSHIP COALITION".
Stephens, Tyson, et al.
Huckster got one thing right. Arkansas truly IS a banana republic. "
That this man would represent himself as a compassionate defender of disadvantaged people is ABSOLUTE DECEPTION, and unworthy of his self-proclaimed "Reverend" status.
He only represents the big money interests that formed the "ARKANSAS FRIENDSHIP COALITION".
Stephens, Tyson, et al.
Huckster got one thing right. Arkansas truly IS a banana republic. "
razorback_MD wrote on Apr 8, 2008 9:42 AM:
" another day, another comment section filled with nothing but racist remarks. Just curious as to how many people grew up in this area and went to schools here? While I agree that there is an illegal alien problem, I do not agree that gangs, underage sex and living 15 in a home is a hispanic only problem. You find the exact same problems regardless of race wherever there is poverty and a lack of education. Its a social issue not a cultural one. When I went to springdale high school, we had gangs, drugs, and underage sex.. and guess what.. none of them were hispanic. Its sad to see so much ignorance around here. "
springdalereader wrote on Apr 8, 2008 10:05 AM:
" I grew up in Springdale, and went to Springdale Public Schools. I am not racist. I do believe ILLEGAL immigration is a problem. I also believe that whether or not it is profitable for the state and nation to enforce laws is not the real issue, just a distraction from the fact that the nation has a large and growing group of people living here illegally. Enforce the laws of the land. "
Deacon wrote on Apr 8, 2008 10:06 AM:
" razorback_MD . . . . It's NOT about race, it's all about being in the United States of America ILLEGALLY. As you stated there were gangs, drugs and underage sex when you were in high school. Do you really think we American Citizens need to allow illegals in to add to our own problems?
The Federal Government is actually adding to the problem by allowing an additional 65,000 H-1B people into this country to work in the same week U.S. companies laid off / terminated 80,000 jobs.
That's Just Not Right !!!! "
The Federal Government is actually adding to the problem by allowing an additional 65,000 H-1B people into this country to work in the same week U.S. companies laid off / terminated 80,000 jobs.
That's Just Not Right !!!! "
razorback_MD wrote on Apr 8, 2008 10:13 AM:
" I also believe that illegal immigration is a problem, but when you make comments such as ralphy mendez did in the very first post.. that is racist. Deacon, if you can find american citizens to work the factory lines at Tysons, Georges, and Cargail then we would not have an illegal immigration problem here. Ahhh, but the 80,000 job layoffs were white collar jobs.. and illegal immigrants do blue collar jobs.. apples to oranges my friend. Again, I say that if you think having illegal immigrants around here adds to our own problems... then you need to be more worried about finding non illegals to work all the blue collar jobs that no one else wants to do. "
ralphy mendez wrote on Apr 8, 2008 10:13 AM:
" Razorback who said it was a hispanic problem? I sure didn't. It's an ILLEGAL problem, lets try to get that through your head. The only people making this racist are folks like you. "
neato wrote on Apr 8, 2008 10:14 AM:
" I'm not buying in on the "our society and economy will suffer".... whatever our society and economy are already suffering. I personally don't enjoy the fact that the city I live in resembles Tijuana. I also don't appreciate the OBVIOUS discrimination and HATE against me due to the fact the I'm not a "brown" person. How would these people like to meet some of the criminals in a dark alley that they are working so hard for? I understand the whole sob story of "I'm here for the betterment of my family", but I agree with the others that you should do it the legal way as others have before you. Our impoverished don't deserve to have to take care of another nations so called "impoverished". I refuse to continue to pay for this sort of illegal activity. If you want illegal aliens then pay for them out of your pocket! "
ralphy mendez wrote on Apr 8, 2008 10:15 AM:
" Hey Razorback how about all the legal folk working in the factories everyday? Wonder what the difference between that and Tyson? Oh yeah, the other factories actually pay wages you can live on while Tyson takes advantage of illegals and low wages. "
razorback_MD wrote on Apr 8, 2008 10:35 AM:
" Ralphy, I'm not even going to begin to argue with you. However, if you are so adamant that americans are lining up to work in chicken factories.. I suggest you take a fieldtrip down to any Tysons plant and observe who works out on the lines. Until you've done that, you have no room to talk. If you feel low wages from tyson are the reason we have illegals here, then you need to be more pro-active in getting that changed instead of arguing over the internet. "
ralphy mendez wrote on Apr 8, 2008 10:37 AM:
" Razorback you act as if factory work or manual labor is so foreign to Americans, tell me why several other factories outside of Tyson are filled with Americans? Because these factories pay AMERICAN wages, not ILLEGAL ALIEN wages. Of course no legal person is going to work in a chicken factory for 9 dollars an hour. "
razorback_MD wrote on Apr 8, 2008 10:45 AM:
" Fedup, I went to school here from K-12, U of A, and came back here after finishing medical school. Even though I have lived in Miami, New York, and Chicago, this is still my home and always will be. Let me tell you..I was a very social person in school, there were few people that I didnt know and that didnt know me. If you think there was no underage sex, drugs, or gangs in the springdale area before the surge in the hispanic population, you are wrong. Drugs and sex were as popular then as they are now, and I can say with 100% confidence that none of them were hispanic. In fact they were all white. The point I'm trying to make is you illegal immigrants arent the cause of the problems you describe. To fix the problem you have to work harder and dig deeper and fix the underlying issues which no one seems to want to do.
Oh, and the other day I was at Panera Bread where they had partnered with the American Cancer Society to help raise money for Cancer awareness.. does this mean that Panera causes cancer??? "
Oh, and the other day I was at Panera Bread where they had partnered with the American Cancer Society to help raise money for Cancer awareness.. does this mean that Panera causes cancer??? "
razorback_MD wrote on Apr 8, 2008 10:47 AM:
" Ralphy so basically you just went back on everything you have said to this point by saying that "Of course no legal person is going to work in a chicken factory for 9 dollars an hour" Oh the irony.... "
fedup wrote on Apr 8, 2008 11:06 AM:
" OK razorback. Enlighten me. What do I need to do to work harder, dig deeper and fix the underlying issues that you say the illegal immigrants are not causing? "
Capo-Di-Tuti-Capi wrote on Apr 8, 2008 11:12 AM:
" razorback_md...Since you claim to be a Dr, go ask you billing dept. what the Non-Payment rate of Illegal's vs Legals is? I dare you... "
sqirt wrote on Apr 8, 2008 11:21 AM:
" hmmmmm drug dealers keep the sytem going, spending all thier monies on new cars, big houses, etc. the bottom line is the LAW says it is illegal to be here in america without permission. if our country law makers and enforces don't enforce that law then why are we required to obay any other laws that they make? our government is always telling us that our laws are here to preteck us from harm and tresspassers. why do people from another country are intitled to break our laws by being here illegally and do it boldly? the elephant and donkey is holding the american people down so that mexico can rape them. we the people are being raped by our government and the laws that pretect us. it shows that our governments areonly interested in the dollar and not us the people. "
sqirt wrote on Apr 8, 2008 11:35 AM:
" it really goes to show how stupid some people are when they talk about wages. 9 an hour is big money compared to the 6.50 an hour ezmart pays, and mac d's. etc. the reason americans don't work at chicken plants is cuz the mexicans ran them off. how? some body don't speak english working beside you. your superviser yells at you because of the bad product. asks you if you speak spanish. the mexican says eh every time they are told something. the american is goin to quit because he or she isn't goin to do the work of 2. then that mexicans brother takes that americans place on the line. so on and so on. how do i know? it's cuz i put up with that for over 5 yrs before i quit working at georges. i know americans that worked at tysons and they quit for the same reason even though some of them had 10 to 15 yrs service in. now i am making a little over 6 an hour riding my bicycle cuz i can't afford gas most of the time, but i don't have to work with people who refuse to learn english. "
razorback_MD wrote on Apr 8, 2008 11:41 AM:
" Capo.. you dare me? What are you 15? the non payment right is higher in NON - illegals. Yea thats right, are you surprised? Illegals pay cash for every doctor visit, unless their children were born here and then they have medicaid. It is actually legal american citizens that we don't get money from since insurance companies dictate how much a physician gets paid. "
ralphy mendez wrote on Apr 8, 2008 12:19 PM:
" Razorback I went back on what I said? Of course legal americans aren't going to work for Mcdonalds pay while doing work in a factory, they shouldn't have to. Tyson takes advantage of illegal labor so they can pay very little money. If illegals were deported then Tyson would have to pay a more comparable wage, which it should be doing, so that Americans can take these jobs. Why ANYONE would support someone being in our country illegaly is beyond me. "
fedup wrote on Apr 8, 2008 1:14 PM:
" razorback I am still waiting for my answer. Yes poverty, sex, drugs and gangs have all been around for years but the immigrant of today has taken it to another level. Especially in Springdale. They have turned a once quaint town that I used to love into something I don't recognize anymore nor do I want to live in anymore. The numbers speak for themselves. The poverty rate in the public schools has doubled since they arrived(now 53%). Cases of graffiti have skyrocketed. Violent crime is up. Dangerous gangs and their leaders are making northwest Arkansas their home. They are contrubuting to the drug crisis. None of this is a coincidence. Before someone says I am going overboard and making this up I am getting all of this info from articles that have been printed in this paper recently. You say they are contributing to the local economy but they are doing more harm than good. The only people to directly benefit from illegal immigration are the people who exploit them for the low wages they pay them. Springdale is suffering from a tax revenue shortage and the headlines in the paper are not going to help. Now I know someone is going to call me racist or xenophobic but you could say the same about the majority of the immigrants who refuse to assimilate and learn english. "
Mrs. Kitty Meow Meow wrote on Apr 8, 2008 1:17 PM:
" razorback, your statement is misleading. Federal law requires all emergency rooms to accept anybody, regardless of legal status, whether they have insurance, or whatever. Anybody who has visited an ER lately can see that the illegals are using them for their medical needs. Non emergency office visits are a different matter. I would venture to say that you don't have a problem with illegals not paying for office visits because they are using the free emergency rooms instead. "
greg19670 wrote on Apr 8, 2008 1:47 PM:
" My problem is this. My wife teaches in a predominantly Hispanic school in NW Ark. 90% of the children get free school breakfasts and lunches. Who pays for this? Tax paying citizens. Meanwhile, the parents of these children are squeezing out kids one after another. And the fathers are lined up at the nearest liquor store buying beer instead of paying for their children's lunches or their family medical expenses. If we stopped giving them free access to things we as law abiding citizens pay for, then they would either leave or make a effort to legalize themselves and assimilate into society. Most of them send money back to Mexico instead of investing it back into the local economy (except for liquor and car stereo enhancements). This is going to eventually come to a head. You can't put pressure on a society like this and expect nothing to happen as a result.
"
"
Deacon wrote on Apr 8, 2008 2:16 PM:
" razorback_MD . . . . I worked for Tyson Foods from 1992 until last year. I witnessed the transition of the work force (when there weren't any Illegals working there, to what it is today) and pay scales. Tyson's used to give the line workers raises of .40 to .75 cents per year. Now they average .25 cents. When Tyson's acquired IBP there was a total of 155,000 workers. There are now 104,000.
You are also mistaken on your information as to the "White Collar, Blue Collar" job situation. According to Dept. of Labor there have been 232,000 jobs cut so far this year.
(http://www.ohio.com/business/17319374.html)
Construction: 51,000
Factories : 48,000
Retailers : 12,000
Professional: 35,000
So don't tell me the illegal envasion isn't hurting main stream America.
"
You are also mistaken on your information as to the "White Collar, Blue Collar" job situation. According to Dept. of Labor there have been 232,000 jobs cut so far this year.
(http://www.ohio.com/business/17319374.html)
Construction: 51,000
Factories : 48,000
Retailers : 12,000
Professional: 35,000
So don't tell me the illegal envasion isn't hurting main stream America.
"
razorback_MD wrote on Apr 8, 2008 2:23 PM:
" Mrs Kitty, my statement is not misleading at all. If you took the time to read what I wrote, you will notice I spoke of clinics, not of ER's. Have you ever worked in a hospital setting? Do you know anything about the statistics of those that visit the ER? If you dont, then you have no room to talk. Please educate yourself before you try to tell me what is wrong in my own profession. "
razorback_MD wrote on Apr 8, 2008 2:27 PM:
" fedup, I dont have time to have in depth argument with you over the internet. Nor do I care enough to do so. If you are actualy interested in educating yourself, I will give you the following article from the White House which you can read for yourself.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/cea_immigration_062007.html
And for the last time I will say I do not agree with Illegal Immigration either. However, it irks me when people like yourself refuse to distinguish between illegal and non illegal immigrants and create hatred for everyone who is not white. "
http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/cea_immigration_062007.html
And for the last time I will say I do not agree with Illegal Immigration either. However, it irks me when people like yourself refuse to distinguish between illegal and non illegal immigrants and create hatred for everyone who is not white. "
razorback_MD wrote on Apr 8, 2008 2:38 PM:
" Deacon, If you have a problem with the wages that Tyson pays I'm afraid that I cant do anything about that. My problem is with people complaining about immigrants taking jobs that no one else is lining up to do. If these blue collar employees line up to work at Tysons God bless them all. But you and I both know that is not the case. You should also know that Tyson does everything in its power (atleast lately it has) to make sure the employees it hires are legal citizens. The bottom line is that americans dont want to work for $9 an hour at a chicken factory. They want more money and more benefits, whereas most immigrants think $9 an hour is a godsend. Until we have our own people willing to work in that situation we will always see an influx of immigrants to this region. Just out of curiousity how do you know who is legal and who is illegal? Because I can never tell.. and thats the problem with everyone complaining about illegals but spewing hatred toward everyone who is an immigrant. "
razorback_MD wrote on Apr 8, 2008 2:47 PM:
" ralphy, your argument makes no sense. Tyson pays roughly $9 (well above what Macdonald's hourly wage is) an hour on the line. That comes out to $18720 per individual. In a dual income family if both family members had that wage, they would earn $37440 (not counting overtime/holidays/nightshifts) which is well above national average. So if everyone had an attitude like yours no wonder why tysons hires LEGAL immigrants to do the jobs that elitist americans dont want to do. "
fedup wrote on Apr 8, 2008 3:21 PM:
" Why doesn't the CEA do a study of illegal immigration's impact. It kinda irks me when they don't distinguish between legal and non legal immigrants as well. "
ralphy mendez wrote on Apr 8, 2008 3:26 PM:
" Razorback you need to pay special attention to your wording. You say "Most IMMIGRANTS would be happy with 9 dollars an hour". No, most ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS would be happy with 9 dollars an hour. Why do you think this is? Oh, because they're here ILLEGALLY. You're a doctor, yet you can't put the most simplistic things together. "
ozarks wrote on Apr 8, 2008 3:41 PM:
" MD: What is your problem with those that do have a problem with those that hire ILLEGALS. Do not mix legal immigation with ILLAGAL MIGRATION. The American public has become aware of the word tricks to meld the 2. Not going to happen here. I will tell you as a young man, I worked in the chicken plants for almost 2 years. My relitives did too and some even retired. They lived modestly to say the least and to have someone that claims to be an MD to suggest a duel working couple making $37.4K a year that may have 2 or 3 children to raise and educate is good money and if that is not enough money they can work nights, holidays, and overtime is not the statement of an educated person. So, I return the statement to you that you put to Kitty.. Unless you have worked in the chicken plants and know what you are speaking about, educate yourself. I wounder if you wound think what you suggest others do be good enough for your children? I would wonder what you would say, if illegals were to come here that were MD's and ran your wages to $20K a year what would you say then. You couldn't get a job in the chicken plate becasue illegals already have that trade depressed as they do, grounds keeping, building trades, working on the trucking industry and others. How did the USA become so great without the help of illegals? "
The Truth Is wrote on Apr 8, 2008 3:52 PM:
" I always hear it said that Americans (white) I assume would want the jobs taken by the illegals if they paid more. Well if they paid more no one could afford the product anymore. (chicken) Empires are are built on cheap or slave labor. We are lucky we have many volenteers who will work cheap so we don't need slave labor. The truth is many Spanish people (legal or illegal) will do many jobs cheaper than white americans. I thank God for those who are willing to work at a managable labor rate daily. It is those people who allow bussinesses to stay open and allows the average person to live one of the richest lives in the world. I have heard that there are in excess of 12 Million illegals in the country. Well if that many people leave the country it could very well destroy the economey. "
Mrs. Kitty Meow Meow wrote on Apr 8, 2008 3:54 PM:
" Amen, Ozarks. Well, I seriously doubt razorback is an doc otherwise he would be seeing patients today rather than making curious statements supporting illegal immigration. Maybe MD stands for Mexican Dude. "
ozarks wrote on Apr 8, 2008 3:54 PM:
" I will add that the couple you say makes $37.4K a year working in the chickem plants is good money? Did you know medical insurance for a family of 5 in the cheken plant can cost almost $300 a month. Did you know if a working couple had to but full for 2 cars to work different shifts or plants could cost about $280 a month? Did you know to feed a family of 5 cost about $600 a month and they are not eating out my friend nor are the eating high on the hog. That eats up almost on of the couples income. The other can keep a roof over the famies head and cloths on the kids backs and shoes on their feet. I am sorry but I am insulted by your you statements. Illegal Migarants are holding these good hard working people down. Those that hire illegals are distrying Arkansas and America for that matter and if you think all is well and everyone is wrong, you will be the first one crying becasue some of us are getting tough out taking it on the chin by the elite and politicians. "
ralphy mendez wrote on Apr 8, 2008 3:58 PM:
" Yes, it's true, the American economy would collapse if it weren't for illegal aliens. I'm not sure how we made it this far since every American turns their nose up at anything that pays less than 50k a year. God bless Illegals.
"
"
ozarks wrote on Apr 8, 2008 4:03 PM:
" Good point Truth. What should really happen is the chicken industry should just move south of the boarder. Then we cauld eat chicken for even less. Then industry could dunp their poulution in the creeks and rivers in Mexico. They could dump the litter where ever they want and no one would care. They could work the Mecains south of the boarder 12 to 16 hours a day and it is not against any laws there and pay $2.00 and hour. Too bad I am not a big fan of chicken cause that would be a good deal for America and Maexico. So, take the plates south. And Truth, please stop with the white thing. All no the illegal immgration is hurting the Black community a lot more than the white. It just so happens we are discussing Arkansas but this is a national crisis. "
Tspud wrote on Apr 8, 2008 4:06 PM:
" The good doctor lost all credibility when he said "Illegals pay cash for EVERY doctor visit" Since that is a lie, I doubt I can believe much else he posts. He is being an apologist for the ILLEGALS cause. They use up much more in social costs than they contribute in taxes. They will be the first in many cases to lose their jobs in a down turn because they are unskilled and thus lead to even more drains on our social welfare rolls. Read the other articles today and apologize for their adding more crime to the area. You said it was here before but now you are importing it as if you did not have enough. "
achicana wrote on Apr 8, 2008 4:11 PM:
" I can already see and feel arkansas hurting by running out the illegals, but then again I can understand why the legals are running them out, because even my own race gets me upset when they think they still live in mexico or something. I just hope everything works out well wrather they stay or they don't. "
ozarks wrote on Apr 8, 2008 4:27 PM:
" Good post achicana. I apprecite your input to this debate and would like to hear more from you. "
The Truth Is wrote on Apr 8, 2008 5:00 PM:
" the chicken industry as well as many other industries might move out of the country if they can not find labor at a cost that allows them to compete price wise on the world market. They could also out source their labor cost. Wait that's right many industries have already done that. We are no longer the only consumers in the world. Ccompanies can and do sell their products world wide. Hence the need for inexpensive labor in order to compete. "
razorback_MD wrote on Apr 8, 2008 5:01 PM:
" ozarks.. for the last time I will say I have a problem with those that spew hatred for immigrants without distinguishing between who is legal and illegal.
ralphy.. unless you have some special knowledge that I dont, Tyson hires LEGAL immigrants. My problem is that you cant distinguish between the two
misskitty.. you got me. haha my medical degree stands for mexican dude :) but thanks for answering my questions about billing/stats on ER visits
tspud... haha you doubt that illegals pay cash for clinic visits if they are not under medicaid? try visiting a local clinic for a day and talk to someone in billing and see what they say.
I am amazed at the ignorance and hatred found not only in this comments section but in NWA in general. This area is doomed for disaster unless you guys learn to be a bit more openminded and for the last time DISTINGUISH BETWEEN LEGAL AND ILLEGAL immigrants "
ralphy.. unless you have some special knowledge that I dont, Tyson hires LEGAL immigrants. My problem is that you cant distinguish between the two
misskitty.. you got me. haha my medical degree stands for mexican dude :) but thanks for answering my questions about billing/stats on ER visits
tspud... haha you doubt that illegals pay cash for clinic visits if they are not under medicaid? try visiting a local clinic for a day and talk to someone in billing and see what they say.
I am amazed at the ignorance and hatred found not only in this comments section but in NWA in general. This area is doomed for disaster unless you guys learn to be a bit more openminded and for the last time DISTINGUISH BETWEEN LEGAL AND ILLEGAL immigrants "
lmgarcia23 wrote on Apr 8, 2008 5:39 PM:
" I see that all of you are saying that you want the gangs and violence to go away but I dont think that people realize that it is not only the immigrants. There is violence from other races. I think that because a person is from another country that is no reason for others to attack them. "
ozarks wrote on Apr 8, 2008 6:18 PM:
" achicana, you seem to have insight as to some of the situation of illegals. Since it does not seem MD has a clue or even know any hispanics, enlighten him on where some of the illegals find work? I can tell you are not from NWA MD. So, you think we are doomed do you? My goodness, I wondered how we survived before folks like you showed up or the illegals? I was born here and it was a wonderful place. We were so far back in the woods until 540 they had to pump sunlight in. Now that we are growing, we can do it and still have a great quility of life and quilty of life does not included those that break the law of the land to get here, or sell dope to our children or grandchildren (note I do not state anything about race), or those that think they are above those that did and would work at the chicken plants. If you think we are domed, Panama City could use a few more doctors? I didn't note any one spewing hatred in this debate other than you trying to twist something out of it or putting words in others threads. "
ozarks wrote on Apr 8, 2008 6:29 PM:
" Garica, you are correct, gangs come in all races. Yes, there is voilence from other races. I don't think I have read where anyone on either side of the debate has said otherwise. Yet, it is a point well taken. I don't care if the gangs are Hispanic, white, black, Asian, or purple. They must be delt with. If you happen to have come from south of the boarder, you do know there we are getting our fair share of Hispanic gang bangers. You also know they deal drugs, promote violence against anyone, even themselves and there women, and steal. So your point is well taken. Any gang banger is not wanted by this hombre. None. The point about illegals are , we have our own to handle. So, having white, black or gangs that are American Hispanic does not make it okay to say, well we have a problem, let the illegal gangs have their way too. I know I am taking a lot of words to explain and I hope you understand my point too. This debate is legal vs Illegal. Nothing more. Those like MD just try and twist things. "
cybertech wrote on Apr 8, 2008 8:39 PM:
" I have to agree with almost everyone here at this point and Ozarks your last reply was about as spot on as it can get about gangs, drugs and the like.
I concur as well this is about legal vs illegal and has nothing to do with race. I dont care where anyone comes from if they come here illegally, for any reason, they are still an illegal and are still breaking the law! As well they are slapping the faces of everyone of those that are working to immigrate here the proper way and work hard to assimilate.
I sat down and did some quick math this evening when the good doctor made the comment about 37,000 +/- per year was good money. Do you have any real idea what it costs to live in this area per year? Trust me 37,000 +/- will barely scrape you by in this area if you have one or more children and that is living less than modestly.
Contd............. "
I concur as well this is about legal vs illegal and has nothing to do with race. I dont care where anyone comes from if they come here illegally, for any reason, they are still an illegal and are still breaking the law! As well they are slapping the faces of everyone of those that are working to immigrate here the proper way and work hard to assimilate.
I sat down and did some quick math this evening when the good doctor made the comment about 37,000 +/- per year was good money. Do you have any real idea what it costs to live in this area per year? Trust me 37,000 +/- will barely scrape you by in this area if you have one or more children and that is living less than modestly.
Contd............. "
cybertech wrote on Apr 8, 2008 8:45 PM:
" Contd.....................
Back from 97 to 2000 I was married with one child and one on the way. Living in Oklahoma at the time where the average cost of living was $3,000 a year less than Arkansas.
I worked as a Mechanic for $21 per flag hour, and wife worked as a nurse for about $10 per hour. Our combined income was around 35k and I will tell you it was still hell making sure everything was paid up, utilities, mortgage, health and auto insurance, daycare, ect..... and we even had our children on medicaid to help with their normal checkups and such.
So you cant tell me that 37k is good money, it was barely enough to scrape by back then and even less so in todays economy where fuel alone is 50% higher than it was then. Today 37k might get you just at or barely above the poverty line!
Contd................... "
Back from 97 to 2000 I was married with one child and one on the way. Living in Oklahoma at the time where the average cost of living was $3,000 a year less than Arkansas.
I worked as a Mechanic for $21 per flag hour, and wife worked as a nurse for about $10 per hour. Our combined income was around 35k and I will tell you it was still hell making sure everything was paid up, utilities, mortgage, health and auto insurance, daycare, ect..... and we even had our children on medicaid to help with their normal checkups and such.
So you cant tell me that 37k is good money, it was barely enough to scrape by back then and even less so in todays economy where fuel alone is 50% higher than it was then. Today 37k might get you just at or barely above the poverty line!
Contd................... "
cybertech wrote on Apr 8, 2008 8:52 PM:
" Contd............................
I am also getting very bored with the "their doing the jobs that Americans wont or arent doing" That is so much bunk!
Now let me tell you I have worked blue collar jobs all my life. Yea I have even worked in factories that employed many hispanics. In fact I got along with almost all of them cutting up and having fun.
I have friends of many different ethnicities and grew up with many more that were from various ethnic backgrounds and almost all of them had one thing in common. They were all here legally! Yea thats right they worked hard to obtain citizenship and did not feel entitled to anything! As well another thing they all had/have in common is that they all speak ENGLISH and they work hard to improve themselves in that area as well all the time.
So some call me racist, bigot, a hater, mean, or whatever, yea been called just about every name in the book! Funny thing about all of it is that those that did, knew absolutely nothing about me! NADA! lol
So call me what you want. Doesnt change the fact that illegal is still illegal!!! "
I am also getting very bored with the "their doing the jobs that Americans wont or arent doing" That is so much bunk!
Now let me tell you I have worked blue collar jobs all my life. Yea I have even worked in factories that employed many hispanics. In fact I got along with almost all of them cutting up and having fun.
I have friends of many different ethnicities and grew up with many more that were from various ethnic backgrounds and almost all of them had one thing in common. They were all here legally! Yea thats right they worked hard to obtain citizenship and did not feel entitled to anything! As well another thing they all had/have in common is that they all speak ENGLISH and they work hard to improve themselves in that area as well all the time.
So some call me racist, bigot, a hater, mean, or whatever, yea been called just about every name in the book! Funny thing about all of it is that those that did, knew absolutely nothing about me! NADA! lol
So call me what you want. Doesnt change the fact that illegal is still illegal!!! "
Tspud wrote on Apr 8, 2008 9:17 PM:
" Doc, most of us are not talking about the legal immigrants but rather the ILLEGAL ones. You posted they pay cash for Every doctors visit and that simply is not true. You know and and all the rest of us know, even the ILLEGALS. You seem to have a superiority complex on this issue when posting here. You want to tell us all how the world works when we live in it. I think we are the ones that are "DISTINGUISH BETWEEN LEGAL AND ILLEGAL immigrants" I think you need to take a look at the whole picture and not your rather myopic view of ILLEGAL aliens. Look at our schools, welfare, insurance, courts, emergency rooms, prisons, etc. Do you think this flood of millions unskilled and uneducated people is good for the country? "
achicana wrote on Apr 8, 2008 9:55 PM:
" Look Ozark, I can understand your fustration. I sometimes get fustrated to. Arkansas is a beautiful state it sure is, and I sure would hate to see this place to look like Houston, or even like South Texas(infested with illegals). I know because i'm from south Texas, and friends tell me that its looking like Mexico over there and yes it gets me angry because nobody does anything about it. Well, at least you guys are and don't get me wrong i've got great both white and brown friends, dearly ones to, but people from mexico need to do get legit, you need to. YOu guys want, wnat, and want, but don't want to give. The sad thing is that we mex-americans get targeted, and get treated like crap because we're brown. I just hope that all this gets situated soon, because if not this world will die with full of hatered. "
masonstorm1958 wrote on Apr 8, 2008 10:26 PM:
" All the AFC is is a front for illegal alien rights groups. Really, their rhetoric is a dead giveaway to their stance. I also believe that the theory of mass exodus of illegals will put the state into a tailspin is nothing more than propoganda designed to sway public officials to their cause. The so-called study was bankrolled by special interests groups who stand to gain financially by having the illegals here. It's a smokescreen and nothing more. With most of the states around us passing strict illegal alien laws, where do you think all these illegals are going to go? Why here of course! For we don't have the same kind of response to our illegal problem. Not with Tyson, wal-Mart, J,B, Hunt and others putting out the money to stop these kind of intitives by the people. It will take we the people to stop this madness. We are slowly being colonized. Now I know how the Indian must have felt. At least he fought back as long as they could. Is that what is going to happen to us? Are going to losr our sovreignty and become a nation where laws are enforced by being the highest bidder for their protective services? What I see going on south of us is not encouraging. Do something now, for in twenty years it will be like watching the tide come in. "
ozarks wrote on Apr 9, 2008 12:28 AM:
" I understand your situation achicaca. I can promise you I would have nothing but respect for any american, born here or naturlized. It is the supports of illegal migartaion that spin the race card and stur that pot. I think everytime something is posted about illegals the vast majority of posters support all Americans and every immigarnt here legally. I spent many years in Military and race has nothing to do with my feelings. It is the law or the disregard for the law by illegals. There is corperate America that wants all to think that not only is illegals for for all but good for the illegal and it is not. It is modern day slavery in some forms and it tearing our counrty apart. Thanks for you postings. You have insight we don't. I am going on vacation to south TX this June. San Anton Padre Island and Big Bend. Have any suggestions? :) Thanks "
ozarks wrote on Apr 9, 2008 12:35 AM:
" What we need to be doing to deporting all illegals and figuring out how to stablize Mexico. There is so much courption in politics due to the drug trade. I know some there try but they are killed or harassed until they step out of the way or give in. We have to seal the boarder or legalize drugs. Kill the drug trade and we might kill the courpt politicans? I have watched this problem for over 50 years. Otherwise, they will just keep coming for Central America to Mexico. It could be such a wonderful contry too. They have so much but courpt polictic is the problem. A county run by gangs. "
TheMadIrishman wrote on Apr 9, 2008 2:14 AM:
" Okay, let's just get a couple of things straight.
First off, this notion of "jobs Americans won't do" is a farce and a spit in the face of American workers. Who do you think did those jobs before this huge wave of illegals?
Second, if you're on the right side of this issue, let's stop using the terms "illegal immigrants" and "illegal immigration" and insist on the differentiation. Those are new-speak terms the left uses to try to blur the issue and make it sound like we're against TRUE immigration.
If you snuck into my country, you're not "undocumented." You're not an immigrant. You're an illegal; a foreign invader; a CRIMINAL, and I hope you're found and deported.
An immigrant has gone through the system, followed the rules, and didn't cheat to get here. They have my respect, my welcome, and the right to be here.
Don't surrender the argument by letting those in support of criminal action control the terminology. "
First off, this notion of "jobs Americans won't do" is a farce and a spit in the face of American workers. Who do you think did those jobs before this huge wave of illegals?
Second, if you're on the right side of this issue, let's stop using the terms "illegal immigrants" and "illegal immigration" and insist on the differentiation. Those are new-speak terms the left uses to try to blur the issue and make it sound like we're against TRUE immigration.
If you snuck into my country, you're not "undocumented." You're not an immigrant. You're an illegal; a foreign invader; a CRIMINAL, and I hope you're found and deported.
An immigrant has gone through the system, followed the rules, and didn't cheat to get here. They have my respect, my welcome, and the right to be here.
Don't surrender the argument by letting those in support of criminal action control the terminology. "
TheMadIrishman wrote on Apr 9, 2008 2:37 AM:
" As to this "study" and the statements of the AFC, both are intellectually vacant, lazy and and dishonest. They're based on the assumption that most, if not all, illegals would immediately pack up and move out of the state (oh, if only) upon the law taking effect. Not even close to realistic.
Just to pick apart a couple of quotes:
"members of the coalition -- which opposes punitive laws aimed at immigrants in Arkansas"
This reporter needs to get his facts straight. This type of law targets ILLEGAL ALIENS...NOT IMMIGRANTS! The bias here is so blatant.
"We oppose it based on the fact that we're opposed to any kind of state or local law that would be punitive toward the immigrant community..." More new-speak from those who seek to aid criminal foreign invaders and put their interests ahead of those of American citizens. Again, the Oklahoma law targets ILLEGAL ALIENS...NOT IMMIGRANTS!
Now take a look at who paid for this study. The Oklahoma Bankers Association. Hardly a disinterested third party. They benefit from more workers being in the state and depositing paychecks into their banks, NO MATTER WHAT THEIR IMMIGRATION STATUS IS!! There's no way this "study" should be legitimized by anyone with any amount of integrity. "
Just to pick apart a couple of quotes:
"members of the coalition -- which opposes punitive laws aimed at immigrants in Arkansas"
This reporter needs to get his facts straight. This type of law targets ILLEGAL ALIENS...NOT IMMIGRANTS! The bias here is so blatant.
"We oppose it based on the fact that we're opposed to any kind of state or local law that would be punitive toward the immigrant community..." More new-speak from those who seek to aid criminal foreign invaders and put their interests ahead of those of American citizens. Again, the Oklahoma law targets ILLEGAL ALIENS...NOT IMMIGRANTS!
Now take a look at who paid for this study. The Oklahoma Bankers Association. Hardly a disinterested third party. They benefit from more workers being in the state and depositing paychecks into their banks, NO MATTER WHAT THEIR IMMIGRATION STATUS IS!! There's no way this "study" should be legitimized by anyone with any amount of integrity. "
TheMadIrishman wrote on Apr 9, 2008 2:44 AM:
" Don't listen to anyone trying to scare you with the notion that getting illegals out of our state and our country will be an economic disaster.
If you had a meth lab in your home and suddenly decided to get rid of it, OF COURSE it would adversely effect your income! But does that mean you shouldn't get rid of it and replace that income with a legitimate venture? What kind of backward logic are these people trying to push on our citizens? Too many are being brainwashed by it. "
If you had a meth lab in your home and suddenly decided to get rid of it, OF COURSE it would adversely effect your income! But does that mean you shouldn't get rid of it and replace that income with a legitimate venture? What kind of backward logic are these people trying to push on our citizens? Too many are being brainwashed by it. "
cybertech wrote on Apr 9, 2008 3:11 AM:
" Hey Irishman, you are totally correct!
In your closing you stated:
"What kind of backward logic are these people trying to push on our citizens"
Well those people think, or rather hope that we are as dumb as they appear to be! lol
They think that everyone is totally blind and ignorant! lol
They think or hope that we are backward, ignorant rednecks that dont know squat and dont have the ability to do research of our own!
You are correct though such a law does NOT target immigrants, it targets illegals but now there is a concept that is so simple that its to hard for even those in the AFC to understand! lol
As well I firmly believe that any exodus would be of the trickle effect and not mass effect and any economic hit would be trivial and short lived.
As well it does not compare with the negative impact that the illegals already contribute to not only the economy but to legal tax paying citizens whether they be born here or naturalized! This is one thing that they conveniently leave out when citing such studies hoping that we are just to ignorant to see it! "
In your closing you stated:
"What kind of backward logic are these people trying to push on our citizens"
Well those people think, or rather hope that we are as dumb as they appear to be! lol
They think that everyone is totally blind and ignorant! lol
They think or hope that we are backward, ignorant rednecks that dont know squat and dont have the ability to do research of our own!
You are correct though such a law does NOT target immigrants, it targets illegals but now there is a concept that is so simple that its to hard for even those in the AFC to understand! lol
As well I firmly believe that any exodus would be of the trickle effect and not mass effect and any economic hit would be trivial and short lived.
As well it does not compare with the negative impact that the illegals already contribute to not only the economy but to legal tax paying citizens whether they be born here or naturalized! This is one thing that they conveniently leave out when citing such studies hoping that we are just to ignorant to see it! "
Madison wrote on Apr 9, 2008 6:43 AM:
" When our childern start being attacked like this girl was we will see just how much economics is going to matter.
East Texas Teenager Attacked Over History Project
Melanie Bowers, 13, and her parents walked into Athens High School Monday afternoon to talk to campus police. They were hoping to get some answers.
"It never should have happened in the first place. The whole assignment was a silly assignment and they should have contacted us immediately after it happened," said J.R. Bowers, Melanie's father.
It was an assignment for history class--to make a protest sign for or against an issue, and Melanie said she chose illegal immigration. Her sign read, "If you love our nation, stop illegal immigration." Somehow, Melanie said the sign got passed around lunch and angered a group of Latino students.
"I didn't know any of these people," she said. One young, she claimed, jumped on her back and he put her in a choke hold. "We have brick walls in the middle school and he slammed my face on the bricks."
Melanie said a group of boys also threatened to rape and kill her. Eventually, the boys let her go and when she went for help, she was ordered back to class, and told she could not call her parents, she said.
You can read this story on Immigration Watchdog.
"
East Texas Teenager Attacked Over History Project
Melanie Bowers, 13, and her parents walked into Athens High School Monday afternoon to talk to campus police. They were hoping to get some answers.
"It never should have happened in the first place. The whole assignment was a silly assignment and they should have contacted us immediately after it happened," said J.R. Bowers, Melanie's father.
It was an assignment for history class--to make a protest sign for or against an issue, and Melanie said she chose illegal immigration. Her sign read, "If you love our nation, stop illegal immigration." Somehow, Melanie said the sign got passed around lunch and angered a group of Latino students.
"I didn't know any of these people," she said. One young, she claimed, jumped on her back and he put her in a choke hold. "We have brick walls in the middle school and he slammed my face on the bricks."
Melanie said a group of boys also threatened to rape and kill her. Eventually, the boys let her go and when she went for help, she was ordered back to class, and told she could not call her parents, she said.
You can read this story on Immigration Watchdog.
"
boomerang wrote on Apr 9, 2008 4:56 PM:
" Well said Irishman, I don't think anyone could have explained it better. "
achicana wrote on Apr 9, 2008 5:12 PM:
" Ozark! South Texas, what can I tell you about it. Just that it looks like mexico. I should be going over there myself and I hope I come back alive. "
gary wrote on Apr 9, 2008 5:12 PM:
" To the "Colitation", If you are so adamant about immigration, as a Church Based Group, you should teach them (immigrants), to try to come to this country Legally.
If they are illegal, then you as a Church should encourage the Illegals to return to their homeland and YOU the Church should collect the MONIES needed to get the proper paperwork to allow them to return to this country LEGALLY!
As for a Church to do differently is to SIN against GODS LAWS. Obey the laws of the land untill those laws become contrary to the laws of
God. So Rev. Steve Copely, are you a Christain MInister or are you a DECEIVER of God, to whom you calim to follow?
Does this colilition of Churches try to practice what they preach or do the have their own agenda? More parishoners, mean more MONEY! "
If they are illegal, then you as a Church should encourage the Illegals to return to their homeland and YOU the Church should collect the MONIES needed to get the proper paperwork to allow them to return to this country LEGALLY!
As for a Church to do differently is to SIN against GODS LAWS. Obey the laws of the land untill those laws become contrary to the laws of
God. So Rev. Steve Copely, are you a Christain MInister or are you a DECEIVER of God, to whom you calim to follow?
Does this colilition of Churches try to practice what they preach or do the have their own agenda? More parishoners, mean more MONEY! "
Madison wrote on Apr 10, 2008 4:52 AM:
" Free Medical Care For Illegals Is Passed On To Paying Citizens
Posted by: The Watchdog in Health care
AZstarNet
The costs to four Tucson hospitals that treated 29 illegal entrants injured in a rollover crash Monday near Benson will be sizable and largely unreimbursed.
The medical-care costs not covered by a federal reimbursement program will eventually be passed on to consumers, officials at the hospitals said Tuesday.
The incident — which resulted in the death of one Guatemalan woman and has three men in critical condition — was extraordinary in the number of people involved and the severity of their injuries. But it’s just the latest example of Southern Arizona hospitals’ being forced to treat illegal border crossers with no assurances of reimbursement.
“It’s a daily event for us,” said Kevin Burns, University Medical Center’s chief financial officer. “This one gets attention because it’s such a large number of people and such a catastrophic event, but we deal with this day in and day out.”
Read more on Immigration Watchdog. "
Posted by: The Watchdog in Health care
AZstarNet
The costs to four Tucson hospitals that treated 29 illegal entrants injured in a rollover crash Monday near Benson will be sizable and largely unreimbursed.
The medical-care costs not covered by a federal reimbursement program will eventually be passed on to consumers, officials at the hospitals said Tuesday.
The incident — which resulted in the death of one Guatemalan woman and has three men in critical condition — was extraordinary in the number of people involved and the severity of their injuries. But it’s just the latest example of Southern Arizona hospitals’ being forced to treat illegal border crossers with no assurances of reimbursement.
“It’s a daily event for us,” said Kevin Burns, University Medical Center’s chief financial officer. “This one gets attention because it’s such a large number of people and such a catastrophic event, but we deal with this day in and day out.”
Read more on Immigration Watchdog. "
violet1 wrote on Apr 10, 2008 9:56 AM:
" continued.... abour the sex/gang/drugs etc..etc.. you guys should take a closer look at your neighbor he might be a non registered sex offender. Or they might have a meth lab running in their home the next thing you know it might blow up or the sweet old man you trust might be watching child pornography...get it by now. Caucasian are as guilty as mexicans on all of these subjects and maybe even more. So please back off and let us live our lives like everyone else does. We are all here for one reason to give our families a better life. "
Who'sit wrote on Apr 10, 2008 11:07 AM:
" We are well aware of our "Caucasian Criminals" and none of the postings I have read for the past year have said anything different. And that's exactly why we do not need illegals here adding to our own problems. We WILL NOT back off, since the illegals ARE NOT living their lives like "everyone else", because they are here ILLEGALLY. "
adabell wrote on Apr 10, 2008 11:18 AM:
" The United States is not the only country overwhelmed by mass illegal immigration. Last week the legislators in England released a statement that immigration did not improve the economy in England. It was good for businesses wanting cheap labor, but had a negative affect on the overall economy of England.
The US attracts illegals because of our economy, and then specail interests claim that our economy would suffer without them. The cost of illegals extremely outweighs any contribution they make to our economy. Consider the cost of social services, education, jails, prisons, repair from grafitti, and then have the gall to say our economy would suffer. If you believe that, I want to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. "
The US attracts illegals because of our economy, and then specail interests claim that our economy would suffer without them. The cost of illegals extremely outweighs any contribution they make to our economy. Consider the cost of social services, education, jails, prisons, repair from grafitti, and then have the gall to say our economy would suffer. If you believe that, I want to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. "
Tspud wrote on Apr 10, 2008 2:01 PM:
" There's the "we JUST here for a better life" argument. What a crock. I/we have to pay for that better life and you have no compunction(anxiety arising from awareness of guilt) in having me pay for all the freebies the you and your ilk steal. You know many do not pay taxes, hospital bills, burden our court,schools & insurance yet you throw out the "better life" crap. Also pointing at one bad behavior does not condone another. Since many ILLEGALS are thieves then it's okay for me to be a thief???? Where does this mass exodus from south of the border stop, 40 million, 60 million... How does a country sustain itself with that many uneducated & unskilled people? This country will become that country and we can see it happening now. "
ozarks wrote on Apr 10, 2008 2:26 PM:
" My question would be this.. hy do illegals come her to have a better life? Why don't illegals make their county a place to have a better life? Is it a mtter of not wanting to do the work or just won't? Educate yourself in your own countries, build up your own contries and make a better life for your children. Then this would not be a problem. Please imporve you lives in your countries. You can do it. You must do it. "
adabell wrote on Apr 10, 2008 4:45 PM:
" 300,000 children of illegal immigrants born in the United States every year, according to the Pew Hispanic Center. They're given instant citizenship because they are born on U.S. soil, which makes it easier for their parents to become U.S. citizens.
It's a "better" life ... that American taxpayers help pay for.
Take healthcare for example -- an estimated $1.1 billion per year for undocumented men, women and children, according to the Rand Corporation.
37 million immigrants cost U.S. $346 billion.
How good does that sound for our economy?
"
It's a "better" life ... that American taxpayers help pay for.
Take healthcare for example -- an estimated $1.1 billion per year for undocumented men, women and children, according to the Rand Corporation.
37 million immigrants cost U.S. $346 billion.
How good does that sound for our economy?
"
lmgarcia23 wrote on Apr 11, 2008 6:25 AM:
" Ozark I dont think that you understand how things are in "their" countries. It is not that they dont want to do the job it is more there is no job. to work a day in their country would bring home what we do in an hour. they come here because they know they can have a better life. "
Madison wrote on Apr 11, 2008 7:04 AM:
" Report Says Immigration Costly
More than 37 million immigrants in the United States, both legal and illegal, cost the federal government more than $346 billion last year, twice as much as the nation’s fiscal deficit, according to a report released yesterday.
“This is another nail in the coffin of economic growth,” said Edwin Rubenstein, director of research and president of ESR Research, which released the report. “There is absolutely no reason immigration policy shouldn’t be discussed on its economic merits.”
Read more about this story on Immigration Watchdog "
More than 37 million immigrants in the United States, both legal and illegal, cost the federal government more than $346 billion last year, twice as much as the nation’s fiscal deficit, according to a report released yesterday.
“This is another nail in the coffin of economic growth,” said Edwin Rubenstein, director of research and president of ESR Research, which released the report. “There is absolutely no reason immigration policy shouldn’t be discussed on its economic merits.”
Read more about this story on Immigration Watchdog "
achicana wrote on Apr 11, 2008 11:59 AM:
" IMGArcia, fine they come here for a better job, but when they do find better, most of them don't want to spend a dime on fixing their papers, most of them complain just about everything they pay that we pay, for instance: lunch for the kids in public schools, they wnat it free, car insurances, life insurances they don't want to pay because is too expensive. No, pay up, and stop complaining. And another thing "I dont speak english, can you translate for me" no, learn english, I mean they pratically want everything easy and free. I'm tired of all that bull crap and I have everyright to say what I want about all this, because as a mex-american of the third generation, I/we get targeted. I'm tired of all this. "Se salen". "
cybertech wrote on Apr 11, 2008 12:10 PM:
" violet1 said: "We are all here for one reason to give our families a better life."
Fine, just for the sake of argument lets just say that is in fact 100% true. Then if so why is it that criminals are searching for the exact same thing???
In other words there is a reason there is big crime, take the drug trade for example. Why do people deal in that sort of life??? Well for the money of course because they can earn in less than a weeks time what any person can earn in a year! They do it for the money, for a better life than what they would have working a minimum wage job. However there is one thing that makes it a bad thing, its ILLEGAL!!!
As well there is one thing that makes sneaking across the boarder for "a better life" as well, its ILLEGAL!!!!
That argument does not hold water and by doing so by illegally entering this country to achieve it, it is a slap in the face to every immigrant that has ever taken the time, and gave up the sweat to go through naturalization and become an American Citizen!!!!
Contd.......... "
Fine, just for the sake of argument lets just say that is in fact 100% true. Then if so why is it that criminals are searching for the exact same thing???
In other words there is a reason there is big crime, take the drug trade for example. Why do people deal in that sort of life??? Well for the money of course because they can earn in less than a weeks time what any person can earn in a year! They do it for the money, for a better life than what they would have working a minimum wage job. However there is one thing that makes it a bad thing, its ILLEGAL!!!
As well there is one thing that makes sneaking across the boarder for "a better life" as well, its ILLEGAL!!!!
That argument does not hold water and by doing so by illegally entering this country to achieve it, it is a slap in the face to every immigrant that has ever taken the time, and gave up the sweat to go through naturalization and become an American Citizen!!!!
Contd.......... "
cybertech wrote on Apr 11, 2008 12:21 PM:
" Contd..........................
Furthermore, the costs of those illegal that sneak across the boarder for this "better life" who do you think is paying for that "better life"? Thats right the real tax paying American Citizens, all of them, white, black, hispanic, asian, indian, ect.....
There is one thing that illegals lack, that those that took the time to go through naturalization do not lack, one word, INTEGRITY!!!
Integrity is synonymous with honesty (fairness and straightforwardness of conduct) now show me and the many others here where anyone that performs an illegal act, no matter what the reason, exhibits such a trait!!!
Again crossing the boarders into this country IS and ILLEGAL act and those that commit such an act, no matter what the reason, and with blatant disregard for every real, taxpaying, citizen, of this country, lack integrity / honesty!
The negative economic impacts of illegals are very real and can be witnessed not only in the taxes we pay every day that continue to increase, but also in the low wages that are paid for blue collar jobs. Wages that have not increased in accordance with the cost of living for the last 25 years, in part due to illegals coming into this country! That is a fact!
"
Furthermore, the costs of those illegal that sneak across the boarder for this "better life" who do you think is paying for that "better life"? Thats right the real tax paying American Citizens, all of them, white, black, hispanic, asian, indian, ect.....
There is one thing that illegals lack, that those that took the time to go through naturalization do not lack, one word, INTEGRITY!!!
Integrity is synonymous with honesty (fairness and straightforwardness of conduct) now show me and the many others here where anyone that performs an illegal act, no matter what the reason, exhibits such a trait!!!
Again crossing the boarders into this country IS and ILLEGAL act and those that commit such an act, no matter what the reason, and with blatant disregard for every real, taxpaying, citizen, of this country, lack integrity / honesty!
The negative economic impacts of illegals are very real and can be witnessed not only in the taxes we pay every day that continue to increase, but also in the low wages that are paid for blue collar jobs. Wages that have not increased in accordance with the cost of living for the last 25 years, in part due to illegals coming into this country! That is a fact!
"
Tspud wrote on Apr 11, 2008 5:28 PM:
" It's okay in some people's mind to break into your house, eat your food, have you pay their medical bills & pay to educate their kids because they want a better life. If they came home to their house and found that situation, I think we all know how they would feel about the THIEVES. "
sovereignty wrote on Apr 11, 2008 7:54 PM:
" why do some feel that iilegal immigration is okay as long as it is good for the economy? is the economy all important? i contend that selling our little girls to adult males would also stimulate the economy. does that make it okay? slavery was good for the economy too. pardon me but we have sold our souls as a nation... "
TheMadIrishman wrote on Apr 11, 2008 10:25 PM:
" To further pick apart the "jobs Americans won't do" argument...
No, of course Americans aren't lining up to apply for a job that only pays a fraction of what the **true market value** is. The presence of illegal aliens artificially drives wages down because companies who employ low-skilled workers know they can get away with paying a pittance for something that ought to pay a lot more.
We, as consumers, benefit from those low wages in the form of lower food prices, but we suffer a lower standard of living brought to our community en masse. The trade-off is nowhere near worth it.
I was born and raised in Springdale and was the third generation in my family to graduate from SHS. Now parts of this city have been home for all these years look like a third-world slum.
Now, is there anyone who will actually try to tell me that illegal immigration in this country is a good thing, and that we need to sustain it or have more of it?
Seriously. "
No, of course Americans aren't lining up to apply for a job that only pays a fraction of what the **true market value** is. The presence of illegal aliens artificially drives wages down because companies who employ low-skilled workers know they can get away with paying a pittance for something that ought to pay a lot more.
We, as consumers, benefit from those low wages in the form of lower food prices, but we suffer a lower standard of living brought to our community en masse. The trade-off is nowhere near worth it.
I was born and raised in Springdale and was the third generation in my family to graduate from SHS. Now parts of this city have been home for all these years look like a third-world slum.
Now, is there anyone who will actually try to tell me that illegal immigration in this country is a good thing, and that we need to sustain it or have more of it?
Seriously. "
TheMadIrishman wrote on Apr 11, 2008 10:40 PM:
" I don't argue that immigration is bad for this country, it's good. Because an immigrant is someone who goes through the system. A person who has enough respect for our country and our laws is the kind of person we need more of here.
The illegal sympathizers will try to tell you that our immigration system is oppressive and unfair and that we should just ignore it until it can be scrapped altogether.
Well let me tell you something. The system we have in place was put there to (among other things) protect American citizens from those with criminal backgrounds and communicable diseases. It also used to be the case that you had to demonstrate that you have something to offer this country in the way of job skills or knowledge. We're not just a big soup line for the third world. And if we keep allowing our workforce to be diluted with low or non-skilled workers who don't aren't fluent and literate in English, then we'll continue to descend toward the level of the third world nations that continue to dump their surplus population on us.
Once that happens, what nation on earth will be left to help feed and educate those places when they need help and rescue them from themselves when their tin-horn dictators decide to slaughter the half of their population that they don't like?
cont.... "
The illegal sympathizers will try to tell you that our immigration system is oppressive and unfair and that we should just ignore it until it can be scrapped altogether.
Well let me tell you something. The system we have in place was put there to (among other things) protect American citizens from those with criminal backgrounds and communicable diseases. It also used to be the case that you had to demonstrate that you have something to offer this country in the way of job skills or knowledge. We're not just a big soup line for the third world. And if we keep allowing our workforce to be diluted with low or non-skilled workers who don't aren't fluent and literate in English, then we'll continue to descend toward the level of the third world nations that continue to dump their surplus population on us.
Once that happens, what nation on earth will be left to help feed and educate those places when they need help and rescue them from themselves when their tin-horn dictators decide to slaughter the half of their population that they don't like?
cont.... "
TheMadIrishman wrote on Apr 11, 2008 10:48 PM:
" continued...
The world needs America to be strong and to be prosperous every bit as much as we need it to stay that way.
The soldiers who fought in our revolution and every war since earned it. They don't deserve to have their efforts go down the drain. The rest of us born here didn't earn it, but it **IS** our birthright, inherited from our founding fathers and the successive generations.
If someone wants to make the argument that our immigration system is in need of change to allow more people in each year, I'm not opposed to examining the facts and having such a discussion. But for anyone to say that we should turn a blind eye to breaking the existing immigration laws just because they don't like them, that person is selling out our sovereignty. "
The world needs America to be strong and to be prosperous every bit as much as we need it to stay that way.
The soldiers who fought in our revolution and every war since earned it. They don't deserve to have their efforts go down the drain. The rest of us born here didn't earn it, but it **IS** our birthright, inherited from our founding fathers and the successive generations.
If someone wants to make the argument that our immigration system is in need of change to allow more people in each year, I'm not opposed to examining the facts and having such a discussion. But for anyone to say that we should turn a blind eye to breaking the existing immigration laws just because they don't like them, that person is selling out our sovereignty. "
fedup wrote on Apr 11, 2008 11:07 PM:
" I'm right there with you MadIrishman. My family have been Springdale residents for many years. The tradeoff for lower food costs is nowhere near worth the diminishing quality of life in Springdale. "
proud to teach wrote on Apr 12, 2008 10:07 AM:
" Benton County Sheriff's Debate
Saturday, April 12th 2-4pm
Lost Bridge - Village Hall
12477 Lodge Dr. Garfield, AR
"
Saturday, April 12th 2-4pm
Lost Bridge - Village Hall
12477 Lodge Dr. Garfield, AR
"
ozarks wrote on Apr 12, 2008 6:23 PM:
" Thanks for the heads up teach. I found that interesting and have been looking for a good time to go and this worked well. Decided on a lot of races and I think I might even have my card all punched except for one race. What do you thing about country judge & sheriff races? "
proud to teach wrote on Apr 12, 2008 6:48 PM:
" Glad you made it. I said it was a debate, but obviously it was a "meet the candidates". Good to hear them all have a few minutes to voice their platforms, though.
As far as sheriff, I'm a Cradduck supporter all the way.
Judges, now that is a different story. I like some of what Bill Adams had to say, but also Chris Glass seems to have a good handle on the east side of the county. Harrison seems to have a good understanding of the office, too. The former state rep was just a little too politician for my liking. That vote is still up in the air for me as well.
I was impressed by what Sewell had to say about the tax collectors office.
I'm glad I went. It helped me to intelligently decided some races! "
As far as sheriff, I'm a Cradduck supporter all the way.
Judges, now that is a different story. I like some of what Bill Adams had to say, but also Chris Glass seems to have a good handle on the east side of the county. Harrison seems to have a good understanding of the office, too. The former state rep was just a little too politician for my liking. That vote is still up in the air for me as well.
I was impressed by what Sewell had to say about the tax collectors office.
I'm glad I went. It helped me to intelligently decided some races! "
ozarks wrote on Apr 12, 2008 7:33 PM:
" I sure agree about Sewell. I had no idea about collecter and her honesty and the way she spoke was as heart warming. She spoke from the heart and was very smart and when she said, I will do a good job if you will give me the chance sealed the deal. You must have been one of the folks walking around with the Cradduck shirts? :) I don't know about judge either? I know I am not impressed with Hines at all. Say's the same thing no matter the question or at least that is what I come away with. I can't remember the fellow that was the democrat, but I must say, he was the most fun and he is wise. I am not impressed with Robin Green for judge. At fisrt I was really for her but after today, I changed my mind. I really like Brad Karen. So, I got a lot out of it. Thanks again "
10-4 wrote on Apr 12, 2008 10:50 PM:
" Sorry you two - Adams fell on his face about the citizens that were willing to co=pay for roads..and Sewell- she is the chief bookkeeper that I believe is reponsible for the send out send back monies. I believe she has a good presence - but Gloria is the way to go!Sewell is the person in charge, why such a mess?
I am not impressed with Robin either glad to see Johnston sp - was there. But check out Gloria - Don't always believe the Heartfelt speach about young and old! just an opinion, "
I am not impressed with Robin either glad to see Johnston sp - was there. But check out Gloria - Don't always believe the Heartfelt speach about young and old! just an opinion, "
ozarks wrote on Apr 12, 2008 11:28 PM:
" Yea, I know Gloria and I have always liked her. YOu have to admit that the sewell young lady might have a point that the problems might be technolgy and some folks have a hard time understanding that. I guess I could have said, I am not impressed with Bill. I decided that the last time I saw him spoke. So far, Bisbee is taking a lot of heat but he knows what he is talking about as far as I can see. I tell you one thing, I have heard enough about how to make a road last and it needs a base and asphalt of chip & seal. I want to hear how you are really going to do anything? Bisbee took a sucker puch from one fellow that asked a question as did Lee about the guy that told Lee the Corp owns that lake and that he don't like change and prasied Ferguson for 5 minutes. That kind of thing should not be allowed. Teacher would do the same for Cradduck and 10-4 would do it for Lee. That seemed to be all set up to me and I diod not like it! I do not like Ferguson. How about the Statement to Cradduck, "I've been arresting Mexican's longer that he has been a cop. Does he really think all Hispanics are Mexican's? The answer is yes he does. And what was meant by that syayement?.. "
ozarks wrote on Apr 12, 2008 11:35 PM:
" I will have more about that fellow in the next week or two. Hey, Stronghands88. Where did you go? You and a few others dropped off butI already know why. :) "
10-4 wrote on Apr 13, 2008 10:45 PM:
" sheesh! Sorry I missed that commment! Good point. Hmmm...If I missed that comment, I wonder how many others did as well? Sorry on Sewell = get behind the facts on this one - all talk no action. My opiniion. but I am sure you can check it out! :) ( I am sure you will agree with me. Hollow might be appropriate. Chief book keeper .. that needs to be checked out for sure. "
10-4 wrote on Apr 13, 2008 10:55 PM:
" proud to teach = I respect you supporting Cradduck.. He seems like a nice young man. I Lean towards Lee. But respect your opinion. :) Please check out Sewell vs Peterson. The judges race seems to be an open seat right now. I need to still whatch this one. I will say I thought Bisbee (sp) did a good job handleing the hot spot and I do like a Harrison and Glass. I need more info to make a decision on them. I kind of liked the odd man out Democrat! I thought he did well too. "
10-4 wrote on Apr 13, 2008 11:19 PM:
" ozarks - Sucker punch - for both Lee and Cradduck and Bisbee on the questions. I would agree. Set Up ! Yep ... There is the difference... No set up by Lee or Cradduck... Fergie... that is his way, I'm with you Ozarks. My question to both of you is ... who? Why? and what do you think? Ferguson looked way too comfortable to me at this debate. He new the endorsement was coming so he didn't care...or was not concerned. My impression..come back!
abc -stronghands - sis you go to the forum? Hello? "
abc -stronghands - sis you go to the forum? Hello? "
ozarks wrote on Apr 14, 2008 7:15 AM:
" Ferguson did look comforatble. At one point he stood up to answer a question and grabed his coat, started to away from the table as if he was going to leave? He looked as if he is Obama thinking of a running mate? He was very comfortable with there but I'm sure he knew he was going to get the endorecement of the fellow in the peanut gallery? The tone of when Ferguson said, he had been arresting Mexican's was a true tell about the guy! I know Andy was a little under the weather but that actually might have been a good thing. He just rolled with it and when he did talk, it was to the point and well said. As for the endorecment? You have not shared a thing with us except maybe a big one was coming and then we played the gussing game. I will tell you this, if Ashely Judd comes to support Lee and you don't tell me, I won't vote. :) "
dragonfly wrote on Apr 14, 2008 8:36 AM:
" Sounds like I missed a good-time. It sounds like Ferguson's new theme song should be "Oops I did it Again". I can't believe some of the comments he makes. Oh well, one of these days he will be called out on them. "
ozarks wrote on Apr 14, 2008 9:39 AM:
" What I found great Dragonfly was hearing all the others I have been wanting to hear from. I even changed my vote from Green to Johnson for Circuit Judge. I have made reservastion for the Rogers/Lowell fourm on May 2 & 9. I am still trying to figure the county judge race although I am leaning Bisbee. Seemed to me Ferguson focus on Carrduk more this time & it rocked Cradduck back a bit. Ferguson came out out on top I hate to say. Cradduck was discussing his inexperiance and they stated he was the only candidate with military experiance and Ferguson they said, I guess you don't know everything, I have served 8 years and have an honorable discharge. Ferguson nailed him at that. I like Cradduck, but politics 101, know you the back ground of the people you are running against. Cradduck made a few other misstatements that was the big one. He is rally a good young man, he just needs more time to gel. Lee seems to like him too. I hope Lee wins and Cradduck should work as a Captain or something for Lee. He will get a great experiance and I think that will make hime really ready? Just my though. Good to see you post. You been busy? Been some Ferguson revelations since we spoke last. He is and his supporters, which you are not hearing from right now, started something they can't finish. "
Not already registered?
ralphy mendez wrote on Apr 7, 2008 9:00 PM: